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Kraichgauer
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23 Sep 2017, 11:36 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What ASS-P said.


What did he say? Because A. I didn't understand the wording and B. it didn't seem germane to my comment.

You said Obama acted lackadaisical towards birther accusations. I replied that seems a false equivalency compared to reacting to a full scale FBI investigation with a special prosecutor involved.

Some people claim that if the FBI lead by a special prosecutor came after them, they would act apathetic if they had nothing to hide, but I think that's likely BS.

On the flip side, I've read along the lines of "the defendant showed no emotion" many times it seems.


His point was, Trump had spread the birther lie over the whole media spectrum so that something-that-never-was had been reported on almost daily. On top of that, racist politicians at the federal and state level ran with this crap by trying to pass laws forbidding candidates from running for President if they did not show their birth certificates. I would think that an all out racist lie used to delegitimize one's Presidency would be more than a little disconcerting.
Consciousness of guilt isn't just implied by anxiety over being investigated, but also because Trump and company had gone out of their way to hide their Russian connections and meetings.


The issue was naturalized citizenship. Not being black. They weren't trying to pass laws against black people from running. When it comes to the issue of being a naturalized citizen, I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger usually came first to mind. I'll bet without looking it up, that was used against him in becoming governor of California.

With all the needless phobic paranoia and hysteria over Russia, I'd want to hide any connections I had with them also. That part is hardly difficult to figure out. I mean look at how batshit people have acted regarding any connections whatsoever no matter how innocuous they might be.


Racism was the whole of the birther matter. Nobody seriously doubted Obama wasn't born In Hawaii; it's just that they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible. And why would they go after his place of birth, unless they could spread the lie he was born in Kenya. And no, I don't believe for a minute that a white politician would have been held to such scrutiny over his place of birth. As a matter of fact, some Republicans who had tried to do away with that law of native birth being a prerequisite for the Presidency in order to run Arnold for the White House, were strangely silent when Obama's birthplace was questioned.
There was no real Anti-Russian sentiment prior to Trump's election, followed by revelations concerning his cozy relations with Putin. Keeping silent on this subject, if there is nothing to it, only looks like Trump and company are hiding something. After all, Obama was open about his drug use when he was young and stupid, so that his political enemies couldn't possibly use it against him. Guilty of innocent, Trump and his people have no one to blame about this but themselves.


Of course they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible, when has that ever been something new in politics? So they used the possibility that he might be hiding not being a naturalized citizen. But since he's black, the left will claim anything said against him is racially motivated.

So what you're saying really is the anti-Russian sentiment was generated in order to delegitimize Trump as much as possible. And not just sentiment, but rekindling the rampant cold war era fear and paranoia. For Trump and his people this might as well be the 1950's.


I have yet to see any argument that there was no racism behind birtherism.
When did I say any of that about Trump and his Russia ties? The Anti-Russian sentiment grew out of Putin's interference into our election. It wasn't any sort of unfounded prejudice against Russians, as Putin has proven himself to b enemy of free government, first and foremost in his own country, as well as others. The dream of Glasnost has become the nightmare of strongman thugocracy. There is every reason in the world to be concerned about Russia's rejection of democracy, and there is absolutely every reason in the world to fear Trump had let the Russian fox into the hen house.


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EzraS
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24 Sep 2017, 1:14 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What ASS-P said.


What did he say? Because A. I didn't understand the wording and B. it didn't seem germane to my comment.

You said Obama acted lackadaisical towards birther accusations. I replied that seems a false equivalency compared to reacting to a full scale FBI investigation with a special prosecutor involved.

Some people claim that if the FBI lead by a special prosecutor came after them, they would act apathetic if they had nothing to hide, but I think that's likely BS.

On the flip side, I've read along the lines of "the defendant showed no emotion" many times it seems.


His point was, Trump had spread the birther lie over the whole media spectrum so that something-that-never-was had been reported on almost daily. On top of that, racist politicians at the federal and state level ran with this crap by trying to pass laws forbidding candidates from running for President if they did not show their birth certificates. I would think that an all out racist lie used to delegitimize one's Presidency would be more than a little disconcerting.
Consciousness of guilt isn't just implied by anxiety over being investigated, but also because Trump and company had gone out of their way to hide their Russian connections and meetings.


The issue was naturalized citizenship. Not being black. They weren't trying to pass laws against black people from running. When it comes to the issue of being a naturalized citizen, I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger usually came first to mind. I'll bet without looking it up, that was used against him in becoming governor of California.

With all the needless phobic paranoia and hysteria over Russia, I'd want to hide any connections I had with them also. That part is hardly difficult to figure out. I mean look at how batshit people have acted regarding any connections whatsoever no matter how innocuous they might be.


Racism was the whole of the birther matter. Nobody seriously doubted Obama wasn't born In Hawaii; it's just that they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible. And why would they go after his place of birth, unless they could spread the lie he was born in Kenya. And no, I don't believe for a minute that a white politician would have been held to such scrutiny over his place of birth. As a matter of fact, some Republicans who had tried to do away with that law of native birth being a prerequisite for the Presidency in order to run Arnold for the White House, were strangely silent when Obama's birthplace was questioned.
There was no real Anti-Russian sentiment prior to Trump's election, followed by revelations concerning his cozy relations with Putin. Keeping silent on this subject, if there is nothing to it, only looks like Trump and company are hiding something. After all, Obama was open about his drug use when he was young and stupid, so that his political enemies couldn't possibly use it against him. Guilty of innocent, Trump and his people have no one to blame about this but themselves.


Of course they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible, when has that ever been something new in politics? So they used the possibility that he might be hiding not being a naturalized citizen. But since he's black, the left will claim anything said against him is racially motivated.

So what you're saying really is the anti-Russian sentiment was generated in order to delegitimize Trump as much as possible. And not just sentiment, but rekindling the rampant cold war era fear and paranoia. For Trump and his people this might as well be the 1950's.


I have yet to see any argument that there was no racism behind birtherism.


That's difficult to research since it's not even a real word. It's one of a slew of made up words used to accuse and label people as prejudiced. It's not like naturalized citizen is a concept that developed during Obama's time. Are you saying the concept itself and it being put into the constitution was racist?


Kraichgauer wrote:
When did I say any of that about Trump and his Russia ties? The Anti-Russian sentiment grew out of Putin's interference into our election.


The Anti-Russian sentiment grew out of > unproven accusations < of Putin's interference into our election.

Kraichgauer wrote:
It wasn't any sort of unfounded prejudice against Russians, as Putin has proven himself to b enemy of free government, first and foremost in his own country, as well as others. The dream of Glasnost has become the nightmare of strongman thugocracy. There is every reason in the world to be concerned about Russia's rejection of democracy, and there is absolutely every reason in the world to fear Trump had let the Russian fox into the hen house.


Welcome back to the McCarthy era. Like with Mueller finding actual evidence, Putin after 20 years in power, is going to get our chickens any minute now.... any minute.... wait for it...



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24 Sep 2017, 1:23 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What ASS-P said.


What did he say? Because A. I didn't understand the wording and B. it didn't seem germane to my comment.

You said Obama acted lackadaisical towards birther accusations. I replied that seems a false equivalency compared to reacting to a full scale FBI investigation with a special prosecutor involved.

Some people claim that if the FBI lead by a special prosecutor came after them, they would act apathetic if they had nothing to hide, but I think that's likely BS.

On the flip side, I've read along the lines of "the defendant showed no emotion" many times it seems.


His point was, Trump had spread the birther lie over the whole media spectrum so that something-that-never-was had been reported on almost daily. On top of that, racist politicians at the federal and state level ran with this crap by trying to pass laws forbidding candidates from running for President if they did not show their birth certificates. I would think that an all out racist lie used to delegitimize one's Presidency would be more than a little disconcerting.
Consciousness of guilt isn't just implied by anxiety over being investigated, but also because Trump and company had gone out of their way to hide their Russian connections and meetings.


The issue was naturalized citizenship. Not being black. They weren't trying to pass laws against black people from running. When it comes to the issue of being a naturalized citizen, I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger usually came first to mind. I'll bet without looking it up, that was used against him in becoming governor of California.

With all the needless phobic paranoia and hysteria over Russia, I'd want to hide any connections I had with them also. That part is hardly difficult to figure out. I mean look at how batshit people have acted regarding any connections whatsoever no matter how innocuous they might be.


Racism was the whole of the birther matter. Nobody seriously doubted Obama wasn't born In Hawaii; it's just that they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible. And why would they go after his place of birth, unless they could spread the lie he was born in Kenya. And no, I don't believe for a minute that a white politician would have been held to such scrutiny over his place of birth. As a matter of fact, some Republicans who had tried to do away with that law of native birth being a prerequisite for the Presidency in order to run Arnold for the White House, were strangely silent when Obama's birthplace was questioned.
There was no real Anti-Russian sentiment prior to Trump's election, followed by revelations concerning his cozy relations with Putin. Keeping silent on this subject, if there is nothing to it, only looks like Trump and company are hiding something. After all, Obama was open about his drug use when he was young and stupid, so that his political enemies couldn't possibly use it against him. Guilty of innocent, Trump and his people have no one to blame about this but themselves.


Of course they wanted to delegitimize him as much as possible, when has that ever been something new in politics? So they used the possibility that he might be hiding not being a naturalized citizen. But since he's black, the left will claim anything said against him is racially motivated.

So what you're saying really is the anti-Russian sentiment was generated in order to delegitimize Trump as much as possible. And not just sentiment, but rekindling the rampant cold war era fear and paranoia. For Trump and his people this might as well be the 1950's.


I have yet to see any argument that there was no racism behind birtherism.


That's difficult to research since it's not even a real word. It's one of a slew of made up words used to accuse and label people as prejudiced. It's not like naturalized citizen is a concept that developed during Obama's time. Are you saying the concept itself and it being put into the constitution was racist?


Kraichgauer wrote:
When did I say any of that about Trump and his Russia ties? The Anti-Russian sentiment grew out of Putin's interference into our election.


The Anti-Russian sentiment grew out of > unproven accusations < of Putin's interference into our election.

Kraichgauer wrote:
It wasn't any sort of unfounded prejudice against Russians, as Putin has proven himself to b enemy of free government, first and foremost in his own country, as well as others. The dream of Glasnost has become the nightmare of strongman thugocracy. There is every reason in the world to be concerned about Russia's rejection of democracy, and there is absolutely every reason in the world to fear Trump had let the Russian fox into the hen house.


Welcome back to the McCarthy era. Like with Mueller finding actual evidence, Putin after 20 years in power, is going to get our chickens any minute now.... any minute.... wait for it...


Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke. And that's why Mueller's investigation is nothing at all like McCarthy's red hunts, which was without any evidence to be based on, and was intended only to glorify McCarthy. Everyone agrees Mueller is an honorable man, and dedicated civil servant.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


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EzraS
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24 Sep 2017, 1:33 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?



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24 Sep 2017, 4:21 am

When it comes to the issue of being a naturalized citizen, I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger usually came first to mind. I'll bet without looking it up, that was used against him in becoming governor of California.

With all the needless phobic paranoia and hysteria over Russia, I'd want to hide any connections I had with them also. That part is hardly difficult to figure out. I mean look at how batshit people have acted regarding any connections whatsoever no matter how innocuous they might be.[/quote]








...Ezra, I lived in California, as a voting-eligible adult, all through Arnold's campaign and guvornership. I have no recollection of anyone, anywhere, spreading anything like the birther narrative against Arnold
Why would they? What sort of scairy story could they spread? He' s well-known as an immigrant from Austria who became a.citizen! It"s all in the public record, and, since he was a celebrity in the bodybuiding world as long ago as...the Sixties?? Seventies, anyway...there would be tons of extant press about pretty much everything he did! Arnold bevame interested in politics as a citizen, tended Republican, IIRC introduced George H. W. Bush at the 1988 Republican Convention (Gee whiz, Hollywood sure discriminates against Republicans, don't it?)...Spiffy.
I ncidentally, as far as being upfront about " okay " illegal stuff/stuff considered qurstionable/dodgy, anyway, Arnold was pretty upfront about his steroid use, IIRC. What in the fuggin' WORLD wouuld there be in Arnold's past that anyone could come up with a Sinister Conspiracy story? Arnold is a quite liberal Republican, it is true, and large portions of the California Republican Party have spent the last 20-or-so years - coinkadinkally the years I've spent in California (Gee, was it lil' ol' MOI :twisted: ?) - becoming ever more absurdly purist and hunting out perceived " RINO "- ism within the ranks and then wondering why they keep losing in Sacremento! :roll: - even ahead of the national party :? - Um, anyway, how's your Mom, Ed? Gotta finish this sentence SOMEHOW! :mrgreen: (I won't go into the sexual harassment allegations - Actually,


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24 Sep 2017, 10:11 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?


There is more than enough evidence. As I've already stated, a network of Russian trolls posing as Americans pushing Anti-Clinton/Pro-Russian propaganda on the American internet has been traced back to Putin, while the associations of Trump's people with the Kremlin are too much for coincidence.
Are you seriously asking what we Americans have to fear from Putin?!?!?! He's an An antidemocratic strongman who has manipulated the elections of foreign countries in order to establish Pro-Russian, antidemocratic regimes. I for one don't want to see my country at the beck-and-call of an enemy.


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24 Sep 2017, 12:51 pm

...To finish what I was saying, the sexual harassment allegations against Arnold (Which IIRC incuded some settled legal actions against him.) was kept out of the papers, mostly, at the time and his " knocking up the maid " escapade was entirely left on the DL until after he left Sacramento, IIRC. I guess he was not dissed at all for his father having joined the Nazis back in Austria during the WWII period nor do I say he sbould have been. However, Ezra, the point is that recall absolutely nothing comparable to the " birther " thing being brougbt up against Arnold!


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Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.:-(
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!


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24 Sep 2017, 10:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?


There is more than enough evidence. As I've already stated, a network of Russian trolls posing as Americans pushing Anti-Clinton/Pro-Russian propaganda on the American internet has been traced back to Putin


Where's the dossier on that? I'd like to look it over.

Kraichgauer wrote:
while the associations of Trump's people with the Kremlin are too much for coincidence.


Having accociations with the Kremlin isn't in itself any more illegal than having associations with Munich. Despite the ominous feeling we're supposed to get when we hear.... The Kremlin dun dun dun!

Kraichgauer wrote:
Are you seriously asking what we Americans have to fear from Putin?!?!?! He's an An antidemocratic strongman who has manipulated the elections of foreign countries in order to establish Pro-Russian, antidemocratic regimes. I for one don't want to see my country at the beck-and-call of an enemy.


United States has interfered in numerous elections across the globe. So we're supposed to be terrified of him over hypocrisy? Kim Jung-un is threatening to nuke the US. What's Vladimir Putin threatening to do to the US?

I'm seriously trying to understand this. Maybe he used grammar shcool level techniques to get the DNC to send him Clinton's shameful emails. But outside of that, what threats or acts of aggression has he ever made against the US?



Kraichgauer
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25 Sep 2017, 12:15 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?


There is more than enough evidence. As I've already stated, a network of Russian trolls posing as Americans pushing Anti-Clinton/Pro-Russian propaganda on the American internet has been traced back to Putin


Where's the dossier on that? I'd like to look it over.

Kraichgauer wrote:
while the associations of Trump's people with the Kremlin are too much for coincidence.


Having accociations with the Kremlin isn't in itself any more illegal than having associations with Munich. Despite the ominous feeling we're supposed to get when we hear.... The Kremlin dun dun dun!

Kraichgauer wrote:
Are you seriously asking what we Americans have to fear from Putin?!?!?! He's an An antidemocratic strongman who has manipulated the elections of foreign countries in order to establish Pro-Russian, antidemocratic regimes. I for one don't want to see my country at the beck-and-call of an enemy.


United States has interfered in numerous elections across the globe. So we're supposed to be terrified of him over hypocrisy? Kim Jung-un is threatening to nuke the US. What's Vladimir Putin threatening to do to the US?

I'm seriously trying to understand this. Maybe he used grammar shcool level techniques to get the DNC to send him Clinton's shameful emails. But outside of that, what threats or acts of aggression has he ever made against the US?


If they showed you a dossier, would you believe it if it showed you anything negative regarding Trump and Putin?
Lying about those Russian connections, and trying to hide them is more than a little suspicious. And yes, there is a huge difference between a connection with an ally like Munich, Germany, and a rival on the global scene like the Kremlin.
It's hardly hypocrisy to not wish an enemy like Russia from having covert influence over our country just because we had unduly influenced the governments of other countries in the past. It's our country, FOR CHRIST'S SAKES!! !
The difference between Kim and Putin is, Kim is threatening to destroy us, but Putin is a threat to our way of free government, as he wants to replace democratic states with strongman thugocracies. And I don't see Putin taking our side against North Korea.


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25 Sep 2017, 12:52 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?


There is more than enough evidence. As I've already stated, a network of Russian trolls posing as Americans pushing Anti-Clinton/Pro-Russian propaganda on the American internet has been traced back to Putin


Where's the dossier on that? I'd like to look it over.

Kraichgauer wrote:
while the associations of Trump's people with the Kremlin are too much for coincidence.


Having accociations with the Kremlin isn't in itself any more illegal than having associations with Munich. Despite the ominous feeling we're supposed to get when we hear.... The Kremlin dun dun dun!

Kraichgauer wrote:
Are you seriously asking what we Americans have to fear from Putin?!?!?! He's an An antidemocratic strongman who has manipulated the elections of foreign countries in order to establish Pro-Russian, antidemocratic regimes. I for one don't want to see my country at the beck-and-call of an enemy.


United States has interfered in numerous elections across the globe. So we're supposed to be terrified of him over hypocrisy? Kim Jung-un is threatening to nuke the US. What's Vladimir Putin threatening to do to the US?

I'm seriously trying to understand this. Maybe he used grammar shcool level techniques to get the DNC to send him Clinton's shameful emails. But outside of that, what threats or acts of aggression has he ever made against the US?


If they showed you a dossier, would you believe it if it showed you anything negative regarding Trump and Putin?
Lying about those Russian connections, and trying to hide them is more than a little suspicious. And yes, there is a huge difference between a connection with an ally like Munich, Germany, and a rival on the global scene like the Kremlin.
It's hardly hypocrisy to not wish an enemy like Russia from having covert influence over our country just because we had unduly influenced the governments of other countries in the past. It's our country, FOR CHRIST'S SAKES!! !
The difference between Kim and Putin is, Kim is threatening to destroy us, but Putin is a threat to our way of free government, as he wants to replace democratic states with strongman thugocracies. And I don't see Putin taking our side against North Korea.


If a dossier was available detailing factual evedence, then I would regard it as factual evedence.

What does "more than a little suspicious" have to do with facts and evedence based on facts with which to draw an objective conclusion?

In what factual way is Russia a rival of the United States? What statement of rivalry has Putin made?

So if someone does something to us that we have done to others numerous times, then that person is evil and a threat, however our leaders involved in the same conduct weren't evil or a threat, because it happened in the past? That's illogical.

When after 20 years in power is Putin planning to replace democratic states with strongman thugocracies?



Kraichgauer
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25 Sep 2017, 1:30 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Russian interference is hardly unfounded, as Anti-Clinton, Pro-Russian sites on Facebook were just recently connected back to Russian hackers using false American identities. We know Donny Jr had met with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton. We know Paul manafort had worked for Putin while in Ukraine - and it's too much to believe he was hired by Trump only out of happenstance. The list goes on and on. When you've got all those Russian associations, it's impossible to deny there's fire in that smoke.
Doesn't it disturb you at all that the Russians had even possibly interfered with our election? At one time, conservatives would have been ready to go to war over such a thing. Strangely enough, no more.


There is no actual evidence that Russia tampered with the election - that's a stone cold fact.
We know this, we know that - but what we don't have is any solid evidence of anything.
There's lots of possibilities that disturb me - but possibilities are not facts or evidence of facts.

Any minute now Mueller is going in for the kill.... any.... minute.... now.
Likewise Putin is going to pull off his fox in the hen house manuver.... any.... minute.... now.

What exactly is it the left is terrified of Putin doing to us anyways? Or is it just nameless paranoia?


There is more than enough evidence. As I've already stated, a network of Russian trolls posing as Americans pushing Anti-Clinton/Pro-Russian propaganda on the American internet has been traced back to Putin


Where's the dossier on that? I'd like to look it over.

Kraichgauer wrote:
while the associations of Trump's people with the Kremlin are too much for coincidence.


Having accociations with the Kremlin isn't in itself any more illegal than having associations with Munich. Despite the ominous feeling we're supposed to get when we hear.... The Kremlin dun dun dun!

Kraichgauer wrote:
Are you seriously asking what we Americans have to fear from Putin?!?!?! He's an An antidemocratic strongman who has manipulated the elections of foreign countries in order to establish Pro-Russian, antidemocratic regimes. I for one don't want to see my country at the beck-and-call of an enemy.


United States has interfered in numerous elections across the globe. So we're supposed to be terrified of him over hypocrisy? Kim Jung-un is threatening to nuke the US. What's Vladimir Putin threatening to do to the US?

I'm seriously trying to understand this. Maybe he used grammar shcool level techniques to get the DNC to send him Clinton's shameful emails. But outside of that, what threats or acts of aggression has he ever made against the US?


If they showed you a dossier, would you believe it if it showed you anything negative regarding Trump and Putin?
Lying about those Russian connections, and trying to hide them is more than a little suspicious. And yes, there is a huge difference between a connection with an ally like Munich, Germany, and a rival on the global scene like the Kremlin.
It's hardly hypocrisy to not wish an enemy like Russia from having covert influence over our country just because we had unduly influenced the governments of other countries in the past. It's our country, FOR CHRIST'S SAKES!! !
The difference between Kim and Putin is, Kim is threatening to destroy us, but Putin is a threat to our way of free government, as he wants to replace democratic states with strongman thugocracies. And I don't see Putin taking our side against North Korea.


If a dossier was available detailing factual evedence, then I would regard it as factual evedence.

What does "more than a little suspicious" have to do with facts and evedence based on facts with which to draw an objective conclusion?

In what factual way is Russia a rival of the United States? What statement of rivalry has Putin made?

So if someone does something to us that we have done to others numerous times, then that person is evil and a threat, however our leaders involved in the same conduct weren't evil or a threat, because it happened in the past? That's illogical.

When after 20 years in power is Putin planning to replace democratic states with strongman thugocracies?


Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Putin blames the west - particularly America - for the Soviet Union's demise; a thing he believes is the greatest tragedy to befall his country. He wants to make America his b*tch while replacing us as a world power.
I never said America's undue influence globally wasn't wrong, but I don't accept doing the same to us is justifiable. Seriously, where is your patriotism on this matter?
And really, you doubt Putin has been a threat to democracies around the world? Ask the Ukraine about how he had set up a Pro-Russian oligarchy in their country, at their national expense. Or how he had tried to interfere with the elections of our western allies.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer