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AngelRho
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03 Oct 2017, 10:50 am

I always interpreted Jephtha as a warning to not make rash oaths. Oath breaking was up there with idol worship and Molech. Therefore, yes, he was committed to sacrificing his daughter, and the Bible does indicate that he had to dispose of her.

But the Bible is unclear as to how he did that. Human sacrifice was a serious no-no, so it’s safe to assume she wasn’t killed. More likely she had to take a lifelong Nazirite vow or some kind of perpetual service close to religious rites, figuratively sacrificed to God’s service rather than to death.

In a world that takes oaths seriously, be very, VERY careful with what you promise.



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03 Oct 2017, 10:53 am

The story of Job. If you're losing your faith in god, I don't recommend reading this.


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03 Oct 2017, 12:36 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...isn't the taking of the lives of noncombatants wrongs...the mass murder of women, children, and those men unable to fight...

I was meaning to distinguish between murder and killing in a civil setting such as where an executioner might rightly-and-justly kill a murderer as ordered by an authorized judicial system.

Certainly the murder of non-combatants is wrong, and even when soldiers have been ordered to do so. However, that would not be the case where the Creator might have ordered the killing of some of His own creatures.


It's hard for me to imagine the God of the cross to order such a thing.

In the case of the Canaanites, it has to do with the depth of depravity of a conquered people. First, the Israelites gained a ruthless reputation in the wilderness, backed up by God’s visible presence. Even without TV, radio, and Twitter or Facebook you’d have had to live under a rock to not have known what was coming. Second, God told the Israelites that He would drive them out ahead of the Israelites. It was their fear that saved their lives, so claims of genocide I believe are bunk. Third, holdouts. “Innocent” non-combatants. Women and children so immersed in evil practices offensive to God that a change would have resulted in unlivable conditions for them, not to mention the negative influence an enslaved people would have on the Israelites, or resentful children mounting a revolt when they got strong enough. Killing them quickly was an act of mercy, not merely an act of punishment.

It helps trying to look at it from God’s perspective. I think it’s difficult for us to imagine a world or a society in which people have fallen so far that God writes them off as irredeemable. God already knows who will choose redemption. A question that used to confuse me was how God could send people to hell when they’d never heard of God. After reading the Bible a few times, the answer came to me. How do we know if someone HAD reached “primitive tribes” in isolation that a single person WOULD convert? I once read about a tribe who’d repeatedly turned back frustrated missionaries because of a tradition that held ONLY what’s perceived through the 5 senses exists. It’s materialism with a twist. Not only is a dead person gone, it’s as though they NEVER EXISTED. So you want me to believe in a God I can’t see who DIED??? Seriously? I mean, this group culturally denies any sense of history, like they’re living out a Stone Age version of 1984. The remaining tenets of Christian faith, as well as those we have in common with other religions, are already present in their culture. So what do Christians have to offer them? We can lament their destiny, but it could simply be they’re just not ready for the Gospel.


My feeling is, the way God was perceived differently from the earliest Old Testament texts compared to those later, as well as the New Testament, is on account of gradual revelation. That is, the early Hebrews erroneously saw God as ruthless and condoning of genocide, whereas in later times, they began to understand God's true nature through divine inspiration.


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AngelRho
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03 Oct 2017, 4:55 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...isn't the taking of the lives of noncombatants wrongs...the mass murder of women, children, and those men unable to fight...

I was meaning to distinguish between murder and killing in a civil setting such as where an executioner might rightly-and-justly kill a murderer as ordered by an authorized judicial system.

Certainly the murder of non-combatants is wrong, and even when soldiers have been ordered to do so. However, that would not be the case where the Creator might have ordered the killing of some of His own creatures.


It's hard for me to imagine the God of the cross to order such a thing.

In the case of the Canaanites, it has to do with the depth of depravity of a conquered people. First, the Israelites gained a ruthless reputation in the wilderness, backed up by God’s visible presence. Even without TV, radio, and Twitter or Facebook you’d have had to live under a rock to not have known what was coming. Second, God told the Israelites that He would drive them out ahead of the Israelites. It was their fear that saved their lives, so claims of genocide I believe are bunk. Third, holdouts. “Innocent” non-combatants. Women and children so immersed in evil practices offensive to God that a change would have resulted in unlivable conditions for them, not to mention the negative influence an enslaved people would have on the Israelites, or resentful children mounting a revolt when they got strong enough. Killing them quickly was an act of mercy, not merely an act of punishment.

It helps trying to look at it from God’s perspective. I think it’s difficult for us to imagine a world or a society in which people have fallen so far that God writes them off as irredeemable. God already knows who will choose redemption. A question that used to confuse me was how God could send people to hell when they’d never heard of God. After reading the Bible a few times, the answer came to me. How do we know if someone HAD reached “primitive tribes” in isolation that a single person WOULD convert? I once read about a tribe who’d repeatedly turned back frustrated missionaries because of a tradition that held ONLY what’s perceived through the 5 senses exists. It’s materialism with a twist. Not only is a dead person gone, it’s as though they NEVER EXISTED. So you want me to believe in a God I can’t see who DIED??? Seriously? I mean, this group culturally denies any sense of history, like they’re living out a Stone Age version of 1984. The remaining tenets of Christian faith, as well as those we have in common with other religions, are already present in their culture. So what do Christians have to offer them? We can lament their destiny, but it could simply be they’re just not ready for the Gospel.


My feeling is, the way God was perceived differently from the earliest Old Testament texts compared to those later, as well as the New Testament, is on account of gradual revelation. That is, the early Hebrews erroneously saw God as ruthless and condoning of genocide, whereas in later times, they began to understand God's true nature through divine inspiration.

I see what you mean.

What makes me uncomfortable about that is it seems to suggest that the authors got it wrong and thus it couldn’t be “God-breathed” scripture. If the OT is wrong, we can’t trust the prophecies of Messiah. And if that can’t be trusted, how can we be sure about Jesus?

That’s why I prefer a literal reading of the Bible. I’m not saying idioms, hyperbole, and figurative language don’t appear in the Bible. The Bible tends to interpret itself. You wouldn’t take artistic expressions of songs too literally, so why take Psalms as commentary on science? Proverbs are by nature generalizations, so why try to accept them as absolute law? When Jesus talked about mountain-moving faith, He probably was pointing to a literal mountain, but using hyperbole to demonstrate just how deep and powerful faith can be—i.e. do you believe in God’s power enough that you could believe the mountain is uprooted and moved at a single word from you? It’s about the totality of heart, mind, soul, and strength. I don’t think rearranging geography was quite what Jesus had in mind.

But Jesus frequently spoke in larger-than-life terms that Jews would be familiar with. Try discussing theology with Jews today and you’ll see what I mean. Or that signature Jewish humor.

Here’s one:

A young housewife living in the town of Chełm had a very strange occurrence. One morning, after buttering a piece of bread she accidentally dropped it on the floor. To her amazement, it fell buttered side up.

As everyone knows, whenever a buttered piece of bread is dropped on the floor, it always falls buttered side down; this is like a law of physics. But on this occasion it had fallen buttered side up, and this was a great mystery which had to be solved. So all the Rabbis and elders and wise men of Chełm were summoned together and they spent three days in the synagogue fasting and praying and debating this marvelous event among themselves. After those three days they returned to the young housewife with this answer:
"Madam, the problem is that you have buttered the wrong side of the bread."



Kraichgauer
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03 Oct 2017, 6:51 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...isn't the taking of the lives of noncombatants wrongs...the mass murder of women, children, and those men unable to fight...

I was meaning to distinguish between murder and killing in a civil setting such as where an executioner might rightly-and-justly kill a murderer as ordered by an authorized judicial system.

Certainly the murder of non-combatants is wrong, and even when soldiers have been ordered to do so. However, that would not be the case where the Creator might have ordered the killing of some of His own creatures.


It's hard for me to imagine the God of the cross to order such a thing.

In the case of the Canaanites, it has to do with the depth of depravity of a conquered people. First, the Israelites gained a ruthless reputation in the wilderness, backed up by God’s visible presence. Even without TV, radio, and Twitter or Facebook you’d have had to live under a rock to not have known what was coming. Second, God told the Israelites that He would drive them out ahead of the Israelites. It was their fear that saved their lives, so claims of genocide I believe are bunk. Third, holdouts. “Innocent” non-combatants. Women and children so immersed in evil practices offensive to God that a change would have resulted in unlivable conditions for them, not to mention the negative influence an enslaved people would have on the Israelites, or resentful children mounting a revolt when they got strong enough. Killing them quickly was an act of mercy, not merely an act of punishment.

It helps trying to look at it from God’s perspective. I think it’s difficult for us to imagine a world or a society in which people have fallen so far that God writes them off as irredeemable. God already knows who will choose redemption. A question that used to confuse me was how God could send people to hell when they’d never heard of God. After reading the Bible a few times, the answer came to me. How do we know if someone HAD reached “primitive tribes” in isolation that a single person WOULD convert? I once read about a tribe who’d repeatedly turned back frustrated missionaries because of a tradition that held ONLY what’s perceived through the 5 senses exists. It’s materialism with a twist. Not only is a dead person gone, it’s as though they NEVER EXISTED. So you want me to believe in a God I can’t see who DIED??? Seriously? I mean, this group culturally denies any sense of history, like they’re living out a Stone Age version of 1984. The remaining tenets of Christian faith, as well as those we have in common with other religions, are already present in their culture. So what do Christians have to offer them? We can lament their destiny, but it could simply be they’re just not ready for the Gospel.


My feeling is, the way God was perceived differently from the earliest Old Testament texts compared to those later, as well as the New Testament, is on account of gradual revelation. That is, the early Hebrews erroneously saw God as ruthless and condoning of genocide, whereas in later times, they began to understand God's true nature through divine inspiration.

I see what you mean.

What makes me uncomfortable about that is it seems to suggest that the authors got it wrong and thus it couldn’t be “God-breathed” scripture. If the OT is wrong, we can’t trust the prophecies of Messiah. And if that can’t be trusted, how can we be sure about Jesus?

That’s why I prefer a literal reading of the Bible. I’m not saying idioms, hyperbole, and figurative language don’t appear in the Bible. The Bible tends to interpret itself. You wouldn’t take artistic expressions of songs too literally, so why take Psalms as commentary on science? Proverbs are by nature generalizations, so why try to accept them as absolute law? When Jesus talked about mountain-moving faith, He probably was pointing to a literal mountain, but using hyperbole to demonstrate just how deep and powerful faith can be—i.e. do you believe in God’s power enough that you could believe the mountain is uprooted and moved at a single word from you? It’s about the totality of heart, mind, soul, and strength. I don’t think rearranging geography was quite what Jesus had in mind.

But Jesus frequently spoke in larger-than-life terms that Jews would be familiar with. Try discussing theology with Jews today and you’ll see what I mean. Or that signature Jewish humor.

Here’s one:

A young housewife living in the town of Chełm had a very strange occurrence. One morning, after buttering a piece of bread she accidentally dropped it on the floor. To her amazement, it fell buttered side up.

As everyone knows, whenever a buttered piece of bread is dropped on the floor, it always falls buttered side down; this is like a law of physics. But on this occasion it had fallen buttered side up, and this was a great mystery which had to be solved. So all the Rabbis and elders and wise men of Chełm were summoned together and they spent three days in the synagogue fasting and praying and debating this marvelous event among themselves. After those three days they returned to the young housewife with this answer:
"Madam, the problem is that you have buttered the wrong side of the bread."


:lol: I liked that parable!
I am of the opinion that something can be divinely inspired, and yet is not meant to be taken literally.


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leejosepho
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03 Oct 2017, 7:01 pm

Aspiegaming wrote:
The story of Job. If you're losing your faith in god, I don't recommend reading this.

Job's wife might have said something like that, but I would say the opposite. Job's life was protected and his many losses were ultimately restored ten-fold.


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AngelRho
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03 Oct 2017, 7:05 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...isn't the taking of the lives of noncombatants wrongs...the mass murder of women, children, and those men unable to fight...

I was meaning to distinguish between murder and killing in a civil setting such as where an executioner might rightly-and-justly kill a murderer as ordered by an authorized judicial system.

Certainly the murder of non-combatants is wrong, and even when soldiers have been ordered to do so. However, that would not be the case where the Creator might have ordered the killing of some of His own creatures.


It's hard for me to imagine the God of the cross to order such a thing.

In the case of the Canaanites, it has to do with the depth of depravity of a conquered people. First, the Israelites gained a ruthless reputation in the wilderness, backed up by God’s visible presence. Even without TV, radio, and Twitter or Facebook you’d have had to live under a rock to not have known what was coming. Second, God told the Israelites that He would drive them out ahead of the Israelites. It was their fear that saved their lives, so claims of genocide I believe are bunk. Third, holdouts. “Innocent” non-combatants. Women and children so immersed in evil practices offensive to God that a change would have resulted in unlivable conditions for them, not to mention the negative influence an enslaved people would have on the Israelites, or resentful children mounting a revolt when they got strong enough. Killing them quickly was an act of mercy, not merely an act of punishment.

It helps trying to look at it from God’s perspective. I think it’s difficult for us to imagine a world or a society in which people have fallen so far that God writes them off as irredeemable. God already knows who will choose redemption. A question that used to confuse me was how God could send people to hell when they’d never heard of God. After reading the Bible a few times, the answer came to me. How do we know if someone HAD reached “primitive tribes” in isolation that a single person WOULD convert? I once read about a tribe who’d repeatedly turned back frustrated missionaries because of a tradition that held ONLY what’s perceived through the 5 senses exists. It’s materialism with a twist. Not only is a dead person gone, it’s as though they NEVER EXISTED. So you want me to believe in a God I can’t see who DIED??? Seriously? I mean, this group culturally denies any sense of history, like they’re living out a Stone Age version of 1984. The remaining tenets of Christian faith, as well as those we have in common with other religions, are already present in their culture. So what do Christians have to offer them? We can lament their destiny, but it could simply be they’re just not ready for the Gospel.


My feeling is, the way God was perceived differently from the earliest Old Testament texts compared to those later, as well as the New Testament, is on account of gradual revelation. That is, the early Hebrews erroneously saw God as ruthless and condoning of genocide, whereas in later times, they began to understand God's true nature through divine inspiration.

I see what you mean.

What makes me uncomfortable about that is it seems to suggest that the authors got it wrong and thus it couldn’t be “God-breathed” scripture. If the OT is wrong, we can’t trust the prophecies of Messiah. And if that can’t be trusted, how can we be sure about Jesus?

That’s why I prefer a literal reading of the Bible. I’m not saying idioms, hyperbole, and figurative language don’t appear in the Bible. The Bible tends to interpret itself. You wouldn’t take artistic expressions of songs too literally, so why take Psalms as commentary on science? Proverbs are by nature generalizations, so why try to accept them as absolute law? When Jesus talked about mountain-moving faith, He probably was pointing to a literal mountain, but using hyperbole to demonstrate just how deep and powerful faith can be—i.e. do you believe in God’s power enough that you could believe the mountain is uprooted and moved at a single word from you? It’s about the totality of heart, mind, soul, and strength. I don’t think rearranging geography was quite what Jesus had in mind.

But Jesus frequently spoke in larger-than-life terms that Jews would be familiar with. Try discussing theology with Jews today and you’ll see what I mean. Or that signature Jewish humor.

Here’s one:

A young housewife living in the town of Chełm had a very strange occurrence. One morning, after buttering a piece of bread she accidentally dropped it on the floor. To her amazement, it fell buttered side up.

As everyone knows, whenever a buttered piece of bread is dropped on the floor, it always falls buttered side down; this is like a law of physics. But on this occasion it had fallen buttered side up, and this was a great mystery which had to be solved. So all the Rabbis and elders and wise men of Chełm were summoned together and they spent three days in the synagogue fasting and praying and debating this marvelous event among themselves. After those three days they returned to the young housewife with this answer:
"Madam, the problem is that you have buttered the wrong side of the bread."


:lol: I liked that parable!
I am of the opinion that something can be divinely inspired, and yet is not meant to be taken literally.

I believe there’s only one way to know for sure. No, I’m NOT volunteering to go first!



Kraichgauer
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03 Oct 2017, 7:13 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...isn't the taking of the lives of noncombatants wrongs...the mass murder of women, children, and those men unable to fight...

I was meaning to distinguish between murder and killing in a civil setting such as where an executioner might rightly-and-justly kill a murderer as ordered by an authorized judicial system.

Certainly the murder of non-combatants is wrong, and even when soldiers have been ordered to do so. However, that would not be the case where the Creator might have ordered the killing of some of His own creatures.


It's hard for me to imagine the God of the cross to order such a thing.

In the case of the Canaanites, it has to do with the depth of depravity of a conquered people. First, the Israelites gained a ruthless reputation in the wilderness, backed up by God’s visible presence. Even without TV, radio, and Twitter or Facebook you’d have had to live under a rock to not have known what was coming. Second, God told the Israelites that He would drive them out ahead of the Israelites. It was their fear that saved their lives, so claims of genocide I believe are bunk. Third, holdouts. “Innocent” non-combatants. Women and children so immersed in evil practices offensive to God that a change would have resulted in unlivable conditions for them, not to mention the negative influence an enslaved people would have on the Israelites, or resentful children mounting a revolt when they got strong enough. Killing them quickly was an act of mercy, not merely an act of punishment.

It helps trying to look at it from God’s perspective. I think it’s difficult for us to imagine a world or a society in which people have fallen so far that God writes them off as irredeemable. God already knows who will choose redemption. A question that used to confuse me was how God could send people to hell when they’d never heard of God. After reading the Bible a few times, the answer came to me. How do we know if someone HAD reached “primitive tribes” in isolation that a single person WOULD convert? I once read about a tribe who’d repeatedly turned back frustrated missionaries because of a tradition that held ONLY what’s perceived through the 5 senses exists. It’s materialism with a twist. Not only is a dead person gone, it’s as though they NEVER EXISTED. So you want me to believe in a God I can’t see who DIED??? Seriously? I mean, this group culturally denies any sense of history, like they’re living out a Stone Age version of 1984. The remaining tenets of Christian faith, as well as those we have in common with other religions, are already present in their culture. So what do Christians have to offer them? We can lament their destiny, but it could simply be they’re just not ready for the Gospel.


My feeling is, the way God was perceived differently from the earliest Old Testament texts compared to those later, as well as the New Testament, is on account of gradual revelation. That is, the early Hebrews erroneously saw God as ruthless and condoning of genocide, whereas in later times, they began to understand God's true nature through divine inspiration.

I see what you mean.

What makes me uncomfortable about that is it seems to suggest that the authors got it wrong and thus it couldn’t be “God-breathed” scripture. If the OT is wrong, we can’t trust the prophecies of Messiah. And if that can’t be trusted, how can we be sure about Jesus?

That’s why I prefer a literal reading of the Bible. I’m not saying idioms, hyperbole, and figurative language don’t appear in the Bible. The Bible tends to interpret itself. You wouldn’t take artistic expressions of songs too literally, so why take Psalms as commentary on science? Proverbs are by nature generalizations, so why try to accept them as absolute law? When Jesus talked about mountain-moving faith, He probably was pointing to a literal mountain, but using hyperbole to demonstrate just how deep and powerful faith can be—i.e. do you believe in God’s power enough that you could believe the mountain is uprooted and moved at a single word from you? It’s about the totality of heart, mind, soul, and strength. I don’t think rearranging geography was quite what Jesus had in mind.

But Jesus frequently spoke in larger-than-life terms that Jews would be familiar with. Try discussing theology with Jews today and you’ll see what I mean. Or that signature Jewish humor.

Here’s one:

A young housewife living in the town of Chełm had a very strange occurrence. One morning, after buttering a piece of bread she accidentally dropped it on the floor. To her amazement, it fell buttered side up.

As everyone knows, whenever a buttered piece of bread is dropped on the floor, it always falls buttered side down; this is like a law of physics. But on this occasion it had fallen buttered side up, and this was a great mystery which had to be solved. So all the Rabbis and elders and wise men of Chełm were summoned together and they spent three days in the synagogue fasting and praying and debating this marvelous event among themselves. After those three days they returned to the young housewife with this answer:
"Madam, the problem is that you have buttered the wrong side of the bread."


:lol: I liked that parable!
I am of the opinion that something can be divinely inspired, and yet is not meant to be taken literally.

I believe there’s only one way to know for sure. No, I’m NOT volunteering to go first!


We'll both know on the Resurrection 8) .


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AngelRho
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03 Oct 2017, 9:31 pm

Excellent point!