why is everyone so mad about trans/nonbinary people?

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C2V
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25 Sep 2017, 6:39 am

Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
Are you sure you understand what being transgender means?

I have an opinion about it, much the way you have your opinion about it, and our opinions differ. As you say yourself later, science doesn't know all the answers yet, so your opinions are no more or less valid than mine.

Never claimed they were less valid - in fact I note later that you're welcome to them. I was pointing out that the chromosomal argument by itself is not sufficient, not that your opinion isn't valid in any way.

Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
No trans person (or anyone else, I hope) is likely to try and insist that a transgender person has the correct body for their brain. Because that's what being trans is. The mismatch.


That's your opinion.

Actually it's not just my opinion, it's part of the diagnostic criteria for Gender Identity Disorder, the medical diagnosis trans people are forced to accept in order to access healthcare.

Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
I don't mind if people want to disagree with me - but it helps if they have a sensible philosophy to back it up and aren't just repeating simplified copies of what they have been told. An "agenda" seems to imply a desire to somehow convert other people to my way of thinking - this is untrue. If someone wants to disagree then that's completely fine with me, each to their own as long as they're respectful and aren't trying to infringe on my life because I'm different. I don't have any need to make everyone think the way I do. I post in these topics (and I'm really beginning to rethink why I bother) to discuss these issues with people who maybe don't understand, have questions, or honestly want to learn and be open minded about another perspective and way of thinking, or to provide suggestions / information to people who may be trans and seeking information or ideas.
If that's not your wish then that's fine. If you're happy with your perspective and being "right" in your own eyes and everyone else's perspective is "wrong" because it's different to yours, then great, may you be happy with your rightness. But if you want to understand, then perhaps your own beliefs need some re-evaluation, to be able to be open to other ideas.


It's funny you say that, you see you're free to to post your opinions on this subject but if I post mine my posts are flagged and removed, so this is always going to be a one-sided discussion so you enjoy your unchallenged opinions in this safe-space, but don't think me not addressing them makes them right.

Why should you be flagged or posts removed? So far you're just expressing an opposing view, you're not being insulting about it. Posts get flagged for being insulting, breaking the forum rules, personally attacking people, etc. Which you're not doing. I may not believe you're right in your opinions, but so long as you're being respectful about it, then I don't see why yours should be censored when mine aren't.
Edited - damn quote thingy. Hope second go works ...


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Chichikov
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25 Sep 2017, 6:58 am

C2V wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
No trans person (or anyone else, I hope) is likely to try and insist that a transgender person has the correct body for their brain. Because that's what being trans is. The mismatch.


That's your opinion.

Actually it's not just my opinion, it's part of the diagnostic criteria for Gender Identity Disorder, the medical diagnosis trans people are forced to accept in order to access healthcare.


We're getting into semantics here but the "brain" is an organ, to say there is a mismatch between body and brain implies some form of organic abnormality. Looking into your claim RE diagnosis it seems that Gender Identity Disorder is now Gender Dysphoria in the DSM 5 and the diagnostic criteria are;

DSM V wrote:
A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender


I don't see anything about the individual's brain in that criteria.

C2V wrote:
Why should you be flagged or posts removed?

They shouldn't but they are. Some people don't understand the difference between disagreeing with something and being "phobic" about it.



Misery
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25 Sep 2017, 7:13 am

Okay.... once again with this sort of topic I see people trying to interject "facts" into it. This always happens, and in too many cases, it's used as *the* reason to justify treating someone badly. It makes it "right" somehow. Now, that's not to say that anyone HERE would necessarily do that... I dont think I've met anyone on here that seems like that.

But I'm going to say something about that stuff anyway, because I bloody well can, and this is what I say to EVERYONE that uses this sort of tired arguement:

You dont have to like it. You dont have to understand it. You dont have to agree with it. You dont have to accept it as normal. You dont have to even remotely mentally grasp it in the slightest.

It doesnt MATTER if you dont do any of those things, and it doesnt even remotely matter if you argue it to death, or what "facts" you have.... there is STILL absolutely zero excuse for treating someone who is trans (or whatever) in a bad way. Zero excuse for disrespect.

**REGARDLESS** of what you think... note the massive emphasis on that word... treat them with some bloody respect anyway. If they want you to call them by a specific pronoun, and they inform you of this directly? ...Just do it. It wont hurt you, but it WILL make them feel good.

Wheras if you refuse to.... dont be surprised if that person just outright kicks you out of their life. It's certainly what I'd do. Similarly, if you try to "correct" them in any way, or spew "facts" at them... again, dont be surprised if you get the permanent boot. For someone with the sort of issues being discussed here, there's no bloody point in being around someone who just refuses to acknowledge who they are, or someone that tries to tell them how to live their life.

It really is that bloody simple.


There, my work here is done. You may all now return to your regularly scheduled whatever.



C2V
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25 Sep 2017, 7:36 am

Misery wrote:
You dont have to like it. You dont have to understand it. You dont have to agree with it. You dont have to accept it as normal. You dont have to even remotely mentally grasp it in the slightest.

It doesnt MATTER if you dont do any of those things, and it doesnt even remotely matter if you argue it to death, or what "facts" you have.... there is STILL absolutely zero excuse for treating someone who is trans (or whatever) in a bad way. Zero excuse for disrespect.

**REGARDLESS** of what you think... note the massive emphasis on that word... treat them with some bloody respect anyway. If they want you to call them by a specific pronoun, and they inform you of this directly? ...Just do it. It wont hurt you, but it WILL make them feel good.

Wheras if you refuse to.... dont be surprised if that person just outright kicks you out of their life. It's certainly what I'd do. Similarly, if you try to "correct" them in any way, or spew "facts" at them... again, dont be surprised if you get the permanent boot. For someone with the sort of issues being discussed here, there's no bloody point in being around someone who just refuses to acknowledge who they are, or someone that tries to tell them how to live their life.

In a perfect world, eh. :wink: I agree of course, and I don't know about other transfolk, but this really is a perfect world scenario to me. You'd boot half the population of the world in any circumstances if you expected trans issues to be treated with respect. Many transfolk that I have met, me included, have had to fight tooth and nail for any respect, from anyone - when cis people just get that automatically, because that's "right," and "normal."
I think that teaches you to be a bit thicker skinned about it sometimes. I'm still willing to discuss these things with people, challenge their beliefs, even if they're telling me I'm sick in the head, I'm a mental case, I'm really a *insert binary gender of choice here* and I'm just "pretending" or I'm "deluded" or that I'm "mutilating" myself by getting the physical help I needed - whatever. I try to treat the other person with respect even if they're not showing me any. I have this dumb idea that that's how any understanding is reached - whether that person chooses to stick to their beliefs or maybe re-think some things, is irrelevant. At least they've had a hopefully enlightening discussion about the topic, and maybe even a little understand more about it from someone else's perspective. Plus I've learned something about the more common ideas opposed to queer issues, which gives me more insight / understanding too.
Chichikov wrote:
We're getting into semantics here but the "brain" is an organ, to say there is a mismatch between body and brain implies some form of organic abnormality. Looking into your claim RE diagnosis it seems that Gender Identity Disorder is now Gender Dysphoria in the DSM 5 and the diagnostic criteria are;

DSM V wrote:
A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender


I don't see anything about the individual's brain in that criteria.

Ugh, it seems that Gender Identity Disorder / Gender Dysphoria has been given the Asperger's Syndrome / Autism Spectrum Disorder treatment and changed around in the manual. When I was diagnosed there was a point made by the psychiatrist regarding the neurophysical differences in the brains of transgender people. There had been studies done at the time marking differences in the activity of the brain often relating to the usage of the brain and the connective messages between different parts, as well as things like the ratio of white to grey matter, the proportions of the sizes of different parts of the brain etc, that supported their theory that a transgender individual was the brain of one sex, with the body of another. I don't remember the studies for that unfortunately, it was a few years ago, but if you're genuinely interested the theory wouldn't be hard to research.
Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
Why should you be flagged or posts removed?

They shouldn't but they are. Some people don't understand the difference between disagreeing with something and being "phobic" about it.

I've noticed that. I am obviously all for all things queer, but I can still understand someone who doesn't agree with me isn't a "phobe" or "bigot" or what have you unless they're actually expressing phobic or bigoted ideas. Personally disagreeing with my view of the world, if you have a sensible and well-reasoned philosophy about it, doesn't innately make you wrong. It just makes me think you're wrong. :wink:
Sorry, this is getting long ...


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25 Sep 2017, 9:07 pm

I have no problems with trans. I personally think non binary isn't a thing. If someone asked me to use those prononouns then depends on the person. If someone close to me asked me I would just use their pronouns. If some person I barely knew defended that I use their pronouns then probably not. I don't think it exists or is sane to be non binary, but don't really care enough to purposely offend someone.



MushroomPrincess
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26 Sep 2017, 9:36 pm

Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
How predictable. The chromosomes argument. As if that defines everything about a complex topic.

It does. If you have a Y chromosome you're male. That's an indisputable fact (*). I know that doesn't suit your agenda but if your agenda blinds you to basic scientific truths then you really need to re-evaluate your beliefs.


"Basic scientific truth"

I believe science is just another religion competing with all the others. Scientific fundamentalism is just as dangerous as any other radical religious ideology. 8)



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26 Sep 2017, 9:50 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Yeah, it's a made up idea like "electrons".

Electrons don't exist in reality.

It's a made up idea.


F*****g magnets, how do they work?


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Chichikov
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27 Sep 2017, 2:59 am

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
C2V wrote:
How predictable. The chromosomes argument. As if that defines everything about a complex topic.

It does. If you have a Y chromosome you're male. That's an indisputable fact (*). I know that doesn't suit your agenda but if your agenda blinds you to basic scientific truths then you really need to re-evaluate your beliefs.


"Basic scientific truth"

I believe science is just another religion competing with all the others. Scientific fundamentalism is just as dangerous as any other radical religious ideology. 8)

Um, not really. Science is repeatable and provable whereas religion requires faith. Big difference.



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27 Sep 2017, 3:05 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yeah, it's a made up idea like "electrons".

Electrons don't exist in reality.

It's a made up idea.


F*****g magnets, how do they work?

Just like trans .... we don't know.

1. All matter is connected, so there's no free orbiting particles like they teach in science.
See, "free roaming electrons don't exist"
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... rons-exist

2. "Electrons don’t orbit the nucleus because there are no itsy-bitsy balls called electrons".

"The stuff called an electron is a collection of quantum numbers: Spin, electric charge, boson number, isospin, family rank, etc. This is what a “particle” means to physicists".
https://www.quora.com/If-electrons-dont ... -they-move

3. The present guess is a magentic force which is a component of the electromagnetic force, which considered a fundamental force of reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet



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27 Sep 2017, 7:33 pm

Chichikov wrote:
Um, not really. Science is repeatable and provable whereas religion requires faith. Big difference.

"Repeatability" is overrated. Why repeat it when nobody wanted to hear it the first time?



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27 Sep 2017, 7:54 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
"Repeatability" is overrated.

Drop a spherical object from a given height and record how long it takes to hit the ground. Do it again, and again, and again. Do it every day, do it a million times, the time won't change.

Every morning wake up and pray that it will rain that day. Say the same prayer at the same time every morning. Sometimes the prayer will work. Sometimes it won't.

God bless repeatability.



MushroomPrincess
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27 Sep 2017, 9:14 pm

Chichikov wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
"Repeatability" is overrated.

Drop a spherical object from a given height and record how long it takes to hit the ground. Do it again, and again, and again. Do it every day, do it a million times, the time won't change.

Okay, here's a thought though: What if the million-and-oneth time, the time did change? You write it off as a fluke? Or are you willing to admit that the gravitational constant isn't the sole determinant of how quickly a bowling ball can fall?



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27 Sep 2017, 9:43 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
"Repeatability" is overrated.

Drop a spherical object from a given height and record how long it takes to hit the ground. Do it again, and again, and again. Do it every day, do it a million times, the time won't change.

Okay, here's a thought though: What if the million-and-oneth time, the time did change? You write it off as a fluke? Or are you willing to admit that the gravitational constant isn't the sole determinant of how quickly a bowling ball can fall?

That leads to one of two conclusions: the last test was either faulty or there's a variable that's unaccounted for. Both can be corrected.

*On a side note: I'm waiting for the Age of Enlightenment to catch up to the general populace. There's a simple solution too, those that don't believe in science need to start getting their healthcare from practitioners that don't use science in their practice, such as witch doctors, medicine men, and traveling snake oil salesmen.



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27 Sep 2017, 9:46 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
That leads to one of two conclusions: the last test was either faulty or there's a variable that's unaccounted for. Both can be corrected.

Which is the same thing I say about genetic essentialist arguments about gender: By boiling it down to simple peek through a microscope, you're leaving other variables unaccounted for. Gender is not just the genes you have :)



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27 Sep 2017, 9:55 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
That leads to one of two conclusions: the last test was either faulty or there's a variable that's unaccounted for. Both can be corrected.

Which is the same thing I say about genetic essentialist arguments about gender: By boiling it down to simple peek through a microscope, you're leaving other variables unaccounted for. Gender is not just the genes you have :)

I'm not saying they are. I actually think Chichikov is completely off-base boiling sexuality down to mere chromosomes, not when there are other scientifically verifiable things at play, such as hormone levels, brain chemistry and synaptic wiring (understandable by science but it's complex and we're still infants in our understanding).