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Campin_Cat
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22 Sep 2017, 8:49 am

.....reason?













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BirdInFlight
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22 Sep 2017, 9:31 am

Some research results seem to indicate that the animal being researched did indeed display what we would call reasoning powers as applied to certain situations.

Various crow studies come to mind. You may want to google it -- there have been studies done on wild crows that show they seemed to be able to apply a reasoning ability to puzzles and maze structures, which was equal to that of a seven year old child. Crows can "think ahead" to results that may arise from tool use, etc.

I think they have found similar results in the greater primates also.



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22 Sep 2017, 11:00 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
.....reason?


Yes. But we humans are more verbal in our reasoning.


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22 Sep 2017, 11:01 am

BirdInFlight wrote:
Some research results seem to indicate that the animal being researched did indeed display what we would call reasoning powers as applied to certain situations.

Various crow studies come to mind. You may want to google it -- there have been studies done on wild crows that show they seemed to be able to apply a reasoning ability to puzzles and maze structures, which was equal to that of a seven year old child. Crows can "think ahead" to results that may arise from tool use, etc.

I think they have found similar results in the greater primates also.

Crows, ravens and some species of parrot are very smart. My sister (peace be upon her) had an African gray parrot and I had several interesting conversations with the bird.


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22 Sep 2017, 11:12 am

I would assume to a certain extent animals like dolphins or chimpanzees can, but abstract reasoning is probably impossible for an animal. Then again I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.


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DarthMetaKnight
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22 Sep 2017, 11:40 am

Can animals reason?

Not really.


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22 Sep 2017, 12:12 pm

A relative was pounding out several steaks for dinner and her Siamese cat was howling around her ankles for one.She shooed him away,and went back to pounding.A few minutes later she heard something fall in the bedroom.She went to investigate,and found a hat box that was on a shelf in the closet had fallen.There was no explanation why,but when she returned to the kitchen one of the steaks was gone.
I've watched my corgi fool the big dogs.If they had a treat or toy she wanted,she would go jump on the ottoman by the window and bark furiously like something was outside.Big dogs drop object of desire to run and look,corgi jumps off the ottoman and runs off with the prize.
I'd say there was some reasoning involved.


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kraftiekortie
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22 Sep 2017, 6:54 pm

I feel humans frequently underestimate animals.

I had a cat who always knew when I was depressed. She would come on my chest, lie on it, and purr. She would also stroke my chest affectionately while she did this.



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22 Sep 2017, 7:18 pm

Awww... :heart: :)



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22 Sep 2017, 7:20 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel humans frequently underestimate animals.

I had a cat who always knew when I was depressed. She would come on my chest, lie on it, and purr. She would also stroke my chest affectionately while she did this.


One day when I had a bad migraine, my cat spent the entire day curled up on the couch with me, presumably because she could tell I wasn't feeling well. She didn't even get up to eat or use the litterbox or anything until well into the evening. I believe it's been established that dogs and cats, at least, can detect human emotions and maladies. Both can also detect small changes that mean a human is about to have a medical crisis such as a migraine or a seizure, and I think they instinctively give such a human attention, such as licking or rubbing against them.

As for reasoning, I think most, if not all, animals are capable of it to some extent, though some are better at it than others. Take training a dog, for example - the dog has to reason well enough at least to realize that it gets rewarded for a certain behavior, so that's what it should do. I know the mental abilities of the average dog have been found to be about equal to that of a human toddler.


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22 Sep 2017, 7:51 pm

Animals can understand the concept of fairness.

Animals can form complex social networks and carry out complex teamwork.

You can create a situation where working together is required to get food and some animals will understand this and successfully get the food.



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22 Sep 2017, 8:04 pm

/\ Yeah, but is "understanding" the same as "reasoning"? I'm not disputing you, I'm just curious.....













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23 Sep 2017, 7:37 am

My friend once saw teamwork among some crows; some of the crows tried to distract a parent goose by pinching its bottom to make it turn around to them, while two other crows attempted to snatch the goslings in front of the goose.

The attempt didn't work in this particular instance but my friend was convinced he had seen a concerted effort at the execution of a plan by a team, with delegated roles.

Crows are ridiculously "thinking" beings, it's being found out more and more. There are other species that have been observed to have the same "aforethought" abilities.

I agree that we underestimate animals all the time and are not fully aware of what they are capable of or even of how similar they are to us. We are animals too and inevitably share many traits because what has been useful for our survival is actually a set of survival tools for them too, many species though not all.



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23 Sep 2017, 8:03 am

BirdInFlight wrote:
My friend once saw teamwork among some crows; some of the crows tried to distract a parent goose by pinching its bottom to make it turn around to them, while two other crows attempted to snatch the goslings in front of the goose.

The attempt didn't work in this particular instance but my friend was convinced he had seen a concerted effort at the execution of a plan by a team, with delegated roles.

Crows are ridiculously "thinking" beings, it's being found out more and more. There are other species that have been observed to have the same "aforethought" abilities.

I agree that we underestimate animals all the time and are not fully aware of what they are capable of or even of how similar they are to us. We are animals too and inevitably share many traits because what has been useful for our survival is actually a set of survival tools for them too, many species though not all.


My mom told me that someone at a bird sanctuary or something (I don't remember exactly where) told her that hawks hunt in pairs - for example, if there's a squirrel on a tree trunk, one hawk might scare it into moving to the other side of the trunk, while the other hawk is waiting there for it.


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23 Sep 2017, 8:36 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
...is "understanding" the same as "reasoning"? ...just curious.....

I think reasoning includes a moral factor beyond merely doing things instinctively or figuring out how to do something...

Quote:
Reason, in the English language, is sometimes taken for true and clear principles; sometimes for clear and fair deductions; sometimes for the cause, particularly the final cause.

5. A faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes truth from falsehood, and good from evil, and which enables the possessor to deduce inferences from facts or from propositions.

Self-love, the spring of motion, acts the soul, reason's comparing balance rules the whole - That sees immediate good by present sense, reason the future and the consequence.

REASON is the director of man's will.

6. Ratiocination; the exercise of reason

But when by reason she the truth has found -

7. Right; justice; that which is dictated or supported by reason Every man claims to have reason on his side.

I was promised on a time to have reason for my rhyme.

...

Reason, verb intransitive

1. To exercise the faculty of reason; to deduce inferences justly from premises. Brutes do not reason; children reason imperfectly.

Webster's Dictionary 1828 - reason


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23 Sep 2017, 8:46 am

Animals do have a sense of justice. It's obvious to me.