Gary Numan's self diagnosis criticized in Sunday Times

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Yes, it's true this doctor would have been talking to Numan's mother about Aspergers in a time when, from everything I gather, it wasn't even actually well known at all even among professionals.

So I agree, that seems unlikely that someone in the UK in 1973 got told about Asperger's, thus that does make this part of his story a bit shaky.

Then again, Daryl Hannah had an even earlier, and formal, diagnosis of it I think? If that's so, it would seem it wasn't unheard of for perhaps a very informed clinician to raise the issue, particularly if only informally -- it would even kind of have to be informally if there wasn't a category yet in the UK.

The only good thing that comes out a public figure talking about this -- even if they are not even diagnosed -- is that at least people hearing it might get curious and look up the condition itself.

Thus, even if that celeb is a big phony who doesn't have it at all, at least perhaps a few thousand more people may have decided to find out more about the autism spectrum and perhaps learn something they hadn't known before.

That's one way in which it almost doesn't matter about the specific celeb.

And I never said it was. Look, before any misunderstanding occurs in which you start fighting with me over something you think I said or something YOU think I think:

I have no dog in this fight, no horse in this race. I am neither defending Gary Numan's supposed autism nor not defending it.

It's one of those things I actually don't care if he is or isn't. It doesn't concern me what he thinks he is or isn't.

But I'm just pointing out that most people who self diagnose got the "idea" they were autistic by themselves. Or by an equally unqualified "friend" or family member suggesting it.

I'm saying "AT LEAST" in Numan's case it was a doctor who SUGGESTED -- or brought up the question of -- autism.

I never said it was a formal diagnosis. I said at least Numan didn't just pluck the idea from the sky. He was taken to a doctor for behavioral issues and the doctor OPINED the POSSIBILITY.

Which is more than most truly self-diagnosed people go on.

So it's not strictly a classic "SELF diagnosis."

I would give it the name "Informal SUGGESTION by clinician."

Are you happy now or are you going to continue chewing on my leg like a rabid dog the way you seem to do to me on threads?

Because I'm NOT GONNA DO IT buddy.

END OF STORY. Go split hairs, misinterpret and pick apart someone ELSES post for change.

I never said what you say I said so eff off.

Last edited by BirdInFlight on 25 Sep 2017, 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

I didn't know that Numan received an informal diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome (AS) in childhood ( https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -aspergers ), though I did read frequently that his wife "spotted" it later in life. True, it isn't a dire situation if Numan chooses to remain self-identified (I respect self-identification, and was self-identified for 19 months before my diagnosis). But, his frequent disclosures seem too pepper his every interview. So, he appears to feel comfortable with his AS, but not enough to confirm it? Okay, it isn't my place to say otherwise.

I am a little less critical of Seinfeld because, from the moment I watched the televised interview, he seemed nervous and stumbled over his words which resembled the clinical phrase "Broader Autism Phenotype" (BAP). Neither behavior is something a professional actor would do unless he had only recently been told about BAP from someone who knew about it; perhaps a clinician, and was trying to remember the exact words. The resulting backlash was embarrassing in my opinion, causing Seinfeld to issue an apology and never mention the incident again. Too bad. Even if he wasn't diagnosed or concerned about himself, it seems he was forced to shut up. Who knows what he was actually thinking.

There is WAAAAAYYYYYYY too much hair splitting and minute picking apart of what anyone even SAYS in this thread.

I for one don't even give a flying TOSS about Gary Numan and what he thinks he is or what a doctor told him or what his wife told him.

I'm getting picked apart in this thread as if it's a big deal. Oddly this is something that barely interests me and I just thought I'd add a thought or two. Now my "I've gathered that such and such" is being picked apart.

I'm out of here. seriously the same people who start picking on me and misreading what i'm saying are showing up again and i'm f****d if I'm sticking around for that BS.

All we have is "Numan is not formally diagnosed." The rest is just speculation.

Good points.

About Daryl Hannah, I think she was diagnosed classically autistic. She had a language delay, and she says her mother was told to put her in an institution.

I'm starting to understand, though, that these shaky diagnoses are not so great for people. There are nasty people everywhere, and I think that those who pass well (read: women) will get a lot of crap if they say openly that they are autistic, partly because they get compared to people like Seinfeld. More of the 'everyone's a little autistic' s**t is not helpful to anybody.

But honestly, bullies will always find something to bully you for, because it's about them, not about you. Even if there were no idiots saying they were 'a little bit autistic', bullies would still bully autistics, just finding something else to criticize, possibly pretending to be supporting some other group.

All right, Birdie, sorry, it turned into one of those threads again. I'm just struggling with understanding these things. I feel like there is something I'm missing. On the other hand, it might be that some autistics have a debilitating need for certainety. Nitpicking is certainly part of the condition.

We all need to be a bit flexible, and to sometimes just accept that we can't wait to make decisions until we know absolutely everything - it leads to paralysis.

You didn't, no, but I got the sense you were trying to imply it was "less worse" than self-diagnosis. In my opinion diagnosis is a binary concept, you are diagnosed or you're not, and my post was just making that clear.

*picks BirdInFlight's toys up from the floor*

Nah, the map is perhaps binary, but the terrain isn't.

As far as I can recall:

1) A South Korean study identified about 2,5 % of the population as being within the diagnostic criteria, but also saying that most of these people don't need services. It's a bit strange, though, because the cutoff point is really whether you struggle with everyday life or not, which is the cutoff point for a lot of mental conditions.

2) There is no clear cutoff point. Autistic traits are on a sliding scale. Whether a person is significantly impaired or not will depend a lot on random life experiences. Burnout is a huge thing. If I had a time machine, I'd have studied something else, maybe not have made such bad choices.

The way I see it is a diagram of say, 50-70 vectors, plus a joint level of intensity. Autistic people tend to end up at either end of any given vector, but seldom in the middle, the vectors being things like various hyper- or hyposensistivities, problems with Theory of Mind, Alexithymia, etc..

I find it striking how some autistics are emotionally flat, and some are extremely emotional.
Some have huge Theory of Mind problems, and some are hyperempathic.
About half have Alexithymia, the other half doesn't.

It's all very puzzling.

You're still diagnosed or you're not. Gary isn't.

If a person doesn't claim that he/she is formally diagnosed, and conveys his/her suspicions about possibly being autistic, I find nothing wrong with that. If the person claims a formal diagnosis when there isn't one, then there's something wrong.

It's true that Asperger's, per se, wasn't really "around" in a meaningful way in 1973. It was known only by an isolated group of people in the autism field.

As pointed out earlier, Lorna Wing, in 1981, published a paper on Asperger's which lead the way toward recognition by a wider group of people--to the point where it became part of the DSM-IV in 1994.

Still, I don't find it would be in his best (nor his worse) interest to disclose his self-diagnosis. I find that he has an honest impression of himself. It does not rise to the level of a formal diagnosis---but it should be respected as the product of self-reflection and research.

While I find his 1973 claim of suggested Aspergers not believable that does not mean I think it was for nefarious reasons. The assumption with celebrities for good reason is always that everything is said for publicity reasons. It could have been an autism, not Asperger's suggestion or something else that was a common misdiagnosis for autism at the time. This happened 44 years ago. Today's technology lets you easily look up what happened in the past. I have found at times I have remembered events partially or totally wrong, remembered them from the wrong year, remembered them out of order.

At the beginning of his career, the British media really had it in for Numan. They thought he was a traitor, his music was too German. In an era of punk and post-punk anti-corporate authenticity, he was openly flying around to exotic spots in his private plane. Now his is living in LA after saying he moved there out of fear for the safety of his kids. So maybe there is still the traitor issue who knows.

As for Seinfeld whatever his motivation it was an unmitigated disaster for autistics that needed to self-diagnose for legitimate reasons such as unaffordable and unavailability of knowledgeable clinicians. When he said that it nearly tore WP apart with 4 or 5 simultaneous threads going on. Outside of WP, it was very similar to the columnist the same harmful if a person does this or that they are not autistic arguments. Since then celebrities have "coming out" have been rare in the states. Autistics most certainly can be creative NT's and even more importantly autistics need to see that.

I keep thinking that since you guys are so assertive, maybe you know something I don't, but then it turns out you don't.

So, Gary's in the 'maybe' zone

It's really interesting to see the historical perspective on this. Yeah, I know the British press can be a pack of hyenas, and the self diagnosis wars are really damaging to the WP community. Sorry for going there.

I agree that as long as people do their homework and are open about uncertaineties, it's ok to talk about this.

I hate the idea that the autistic community should be like a fraternity, with mental health professionals as gatekeepers. Too many have run into gatekeepers in other communities. It's enough now.

It was a non issue for me sort of a "ok, so that is what i got" and moved on, i eventually realised that i needed help in life and got myself an official diagnosis. I wasn't talking to anyone about it (as in that i had it), at work and amongst friends i mentioned to everyone that i probably had it, and later on it got official - noone was surprised.

The main reason i realised it myself is that i had an Aspie friend (also with a proper diagnosis) and she said "you're really aspie, you know that?" and told me about what it was like. I eventually found my way around to this forum in the first quarter of 2009, and later on i think i posted "I knew it!" when i got the official diagnosis later on.

There have been people on WP that claimed to have autism/aspergers and some cases were obviously not even close, like one girl who mentioned that she was playing mindgames with a guy that most aspie women don't do, she still insisted that she had the diagnosis when me and a few others started calling out her bluff.

Nowadays - i don't even care what people claim, i guess that the number of false positives are under the true negative ratio and many more people go undiagnosed and keep wondering "wtf is wrong with me" without ever coming to terms with a diagnosis.

I support completely the idea that autists should be included among the staffers at autism clinics. We can spot other autists quite accurately.

Yes, that is very much what I think too, particularly about the number of undiagnosed people.

For me it was meeting a little girl who reminded me so much of myself as a child. I was mystified at why the adults around her were acting so cold with her. It made me realize that they weren't picking up on her emotions, which to me were loud and clear.

Yes I've seen some people on WP who have complex mental health issues and are flailing. I wish them well and move on. I've also seen some people on WP who are telling others they are autistic, yet what seems to be bothering them is an affective empathy deficiency rather than a cognitive one. Often you'll see them start asking for pm's after a few postings. I ignore them and move on.

What bothers me a lot is when people start attacking others who have a different autistic profile then them. The 'I'm the original autistic and all other autistics should act like me", basically a No True Scotsman.

Thanks for explaining.