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Lintar
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09 Oct 2017, 7:31 pm

MagicKnight wrote:
People do a little bit of charity so that they can wash their hands off the social injustice and tell off others, feeling as if they don't have anything else with the problem, because they "naturally just did their part". So much so if they do that in secrecy, "exactly as the Lord commanded, so that my left hand doesn't know what my right hand is doing...". They do it for some reward, may it be inner peace of mind or the promise of spiritual redemption, it's always a reward nevertheless.


If that's the case then their motives are not pure.



AngelRho
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09 Oct 2017, 8:33 pm

Lintar wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Lintar wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
"Selfish" can mean you like to donate money, because you want people to think better of you.

"Selfish" can mean you like to help poor people, because it makes you feel good.

I think all charity is done for selfish reasons.


Perhaps some, but the true meaning of charity is to do something for someone less fortunate than yourself because it is the right thing to do, not because it makes you feel good, or because you want to improve your reputation for being a "good person".

"Doing right" is the same selfish motivation as "being a good person".

Also, considering .... that charity can cause harm, maybe charity is not "the right thing to do".
Image


What?! How? I'm the type of person who, when confronted by a red light at an intersection, will still stop even at 3 A.M. when there are clearly no other cars for miles around, because that is what I am supposed to do. I don't seek anyone's approval; that's absurd.

Doing what you’re “supposed to do,” the “right thing”—again, rational self-interest. To break the law, even if no one gets hurt or no one is around to see, would be to disrespect an institution in place specifically to keep you safe along with other drivers. To break the law according to situational ethics would mean you conceivably could break the law in other circumstances. And if the law doesn’t apply to you, who DOES it apply to?

You are COMPELLED to obey the law, even if no one else is looking, because to break the law would mean acting contrary to your own values. It all goes back to rational self-interest.



AngelRho
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09 Oct 2017, 9:12 pm

Lintar wrote:
MagicKnight wrote:
People do a little bit of charity so that they can wash their hands off the social injustice and tell off others, feeling as if they don't have anything else with the problem, because they "naturally just did their part". So much so if they do that in secrecy, "exactly as the Lord commanded, so that my left hand doesn't know what my right hand is doing...". They do it for some reward, may it be inner peace of mind or the promise of spiritual redemption, it's always a reward nevertheless.


If that's the case then their motives are not pure.

EXACTLY!! ! No motive is pure.

Rand had no room for Christ, and subsequent Objectivists have rejected Christianity as well. Part of the reason why is that Christianity starts from a pessimistic view of humanity in Original Sin. For Rand, if there must be Original Sin, then must not there also be Original Good? Objectivists also point to the failure of altruism, which is a perceived central point within Christianity. What Objectivists miss is altruism failed in early Christianity, a fact that is well-documented in the Acts of the Apostles. A society built upon compulsory sacrifice and mandated denial of self towards service to the community breeds resentment and contempt. When you do more and better work but your productivity isn’t rewarded, why bother making the effort? When creativity isn’t celebrated, where is innovation and progress? When you give up EVERYTHING for the good of all only for your neighbor to have a nicer house, nicer transportation, and better food to eat, how does that make you feel? The Soviet era was marked by pettiness and suspicion among those living behind the iron curtain. The early days gave us Holodomor. Municipal governments were corrupt, accepting bribes and showing favoritism. Socialism failed. The early days of the Christian church saw such concepts as property held in common, the abolition of personal property, and a “from each—to each” mentality. What happened? People started lying about selling all their property and giving to the community, holding back a portion of their wealth as their own. Where are those communities now? The first settlements in North America were attempts at the same thing. Jamestown. Plymouth. Because either work was not rewarded or all work was rewarded equally, there was little motivation to produce until policies were put in place that made production a matter of personal survival. You don’t work, you don’t eat. Take care of those who are incapable of helping themselves.

Christian ethics, capitalism, generosity—people working together toward mutually beneficial ends—ALL PRODUCTS OF RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST. There is no need to view suffering as the norm. Suffering is NOT to be expected. It is to be handled immediately so we can get back to our happy and productive lives. With Christianity, atonement is sufficient for a man to be at peace both with himself and with others. The question of eternity is settled, so what room is there for personal suffering? Personal suffering no longer exists in any meaningful terms. So helping others in achieving their goals constitutes an investment. It ALWAYS comes back.

Say it with me: Rational. Self-. Interest.



B19
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09 Oct 2017, 10:14 pm

Gosh.

Generosity to others just might be the rent less self-centred people generally choose to pay as the rent for the room we take up on this planet.



LoveNotHate
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09 Oct 2017, 11:16 pm

B19 wrote:
Gosh.
Generosity to others just might be the rent less self-centred people generally choose to pay as the rent for the room we take up on this planet.

Rand said the idea that people exist to serve others is evil.



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09 Oct 2017, 11:25 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
B19 wrote:
Gosh.
Generosity to others just might be the rent less self-centred people generally choose to pay as the rent for the room we take up on this planet.

Rand said the idea that people exist to serve others is evil.


Which is Rand's opinion, and nothing more.


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B19
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09 Oct 2017, 11:33 pm

Kraichgauer
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10 Oct 2017, 12:03 am

B19 wrote:


Not exactly a glowing review for Rand's philosophy in action.


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AngelRho
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10 Oct 2017, 6:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
B19 wrote:


Not exactly a glowing review for Rand's philosophy in action.

It’s NOT her philosophy in action. For Rand, the key to self-interest is RATIONAL self-interest. Any self-interest that fails to empower others cannot be said to be rational. When you can’t look beyond yourself and see how service to others ultimately benefits YOU, your choices to act for yourself are destructive.

The idea that we EXIST to serve others IS evil. That’s altruism. In my previous post I demonstrated how altruism fails and brings out the worst in people. Organized altruism results in socialism. Socialism is a failed system. We KNOW this. Rational individualism or self-interest seeks the good of others because the individual thrives when the community thrives. It understands that others are individuals, too, with their own self-interest. By tapping into that, everyone benefits.



B19
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10 Oct 2017, 2:17 pm

Define the "self".. it has meanings far beyond self-as-ego.



AngelRho
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10 Oct 2017, 3:59 pm

B19 wrote:
Define the "self".. it has meanings far beyond self-as-ego.

“I.” The individual. Self-interest is, say, individual A looking out for what is best for individual A.