Obvious Flamebait

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Sure, I've been at meaner forums too. But WP is different, and I didn't expect to find the usual NT mud-pit at a forum here.

I've had my life threatened by a moderator at a Spiritual forum.

Has anyone had the ScienceForums experience? Not recommended.

Michael829

Hmm...

I don't frequent other forums. So I don't know what a majority NT forum is like.

Women forums tend to adopt The One Universal Frontline and then act collectively.

A long time ago before I joined WP and sometimes even after I did AOL live chat.
The worst trolling and personal attacking I've seen here don't hold a candle to what they had on AOL.
Hell, most of it was hilarious.

Solid points there. There may well be ways of tweaking the way these things are framed to contain the raging dumpster fires better. I also remember seeing one thread on a religeous subject that was, wisely, permitted to remain in The Haven to preserve its positive, non-evangelising tone. (No vested interest here: I'm very definitely an atheist!) We need more workarounds like that.

I think as far as I've figured out how this works:

- Find people who you know hold themselves to high standards and who like to either look for viewpoints they disagree with in their strongest form or help build up the case that someone who disagrees with would make rather than straw-manning, arguing with the assumption of bad faith, etc. and focus on the kinds of things they're talking about or what they say in response to your ideas.

- When someone someone essentially replies with "Meemeemeemeemeemmee thhhhhhhhhhpppppp!! !" or makes a comment so emotional and content-void that it could mean anything or nothing, just let it fly past and go on reading the next post. I'd do the same as well if you get 'all white people are nazis', 'Catholics are pedophiles by nature', or anything that's such flamebait garbage that even if they were genuinely that ignorant it still wouldn't reflect any better on them. I really think when people do say things like that the best thing that can be done is leave it out there as a rhetorical question or comment - because in a way they answered themselves, so well in fact that almost anyone (or anyone whose opinion is worth caring about) will see such statements or questions as testament to their character and really powerful self-indictments. To even comment or respond would be stealing their self-incriminating thunder.

- Another subtle issue is when you get a 'TLDR but what I got....' , and they could very easily reply with something that voids the content of what you said. I mean, if you wrote a 10,000 word essay they might have a point, at 500 words or less there's something of a slight-of-hand really I think perfected by fundamentalist Christians, especially those with language barriers, where if you say something complex 'I don't understand what you're saying! I don't understand what you're saying! What are you trying to say?' - and you quickly realize that the only thing you can say that's digestible is 'I want to be bad!! ! Bad!! Party! Drink!! Live sinful life!!'. There are other versions of that as well, sometimes it's even literally that last format, but generally when someone starts trying to take you down that rabbit hole change strategy and politely ignore them. It's a bit like what you'd do IRL if you got this, realized it, put on a pleasant smile, and started talking to someone else.

Well said.

I’ve gone so far as a Christian to actually lay out my entire playbook. I’m convinced that people make up their minds according to what they want to believe. There’s nothing ultimately rational about being a Christian, an atheist, or anything else for that matter. It’s about what you choose to believe, so a better question is why?

This is why I don’t make forward assertions about Christianity. I know there’s a God, I know I’m saved. I don’t feel any compulsion to prove anything to anyone.

Once you start down the burden-of-proof path, there is a very familiar pattern that happens almost every time. Person A makes assertion Q. Person B makes objection R. Person A makes defense S. B makes refutation T. A refutes refutation with refutation U. B refutes refutation of refutation with refutation V.

It never ends. Someone gets bored or tired or frustrated and gives up. So the “winner” is whoever manages to get the last word.

If for the sake of argument you want to win by getting the last word, it’s very, very simple. Keep the pressure on the person making the claim.

God is a bully.

Oh really? Why do you say that?

God murders people.

Oh, he does? When did that happen?

Canaanite genocide.

Oh? What Canaanite genocide?

Book of Joshua.

I didn’t see anything about genocide. Can you be specific?

Joshua xx:xx

Ok, and how is that genocide?

[explanation]

That’s not genocide because [explanation, supporting scripture]

[excuses about killing]

Ok, so how does that qualify as murder?

[explanation]

Murder is defined as unjustified killing. Can you provide evidence that killing Canaanite holdouts really was unjustified?

Uuuuuuuuhhhhhh...

...

I’m using that as an example because one user keeps falling back on the whole genocidal God thing, and I don’t really buy into the premise that God really committed genocide. And I’m not going to continue the debate here, that’s not my point. My point is you should never let someone get away with making careless statements like that. I’m not immune either, this isn’t a Christian apologist thing. When you keep the pressure on someone running wild on irrational assertions, their arguments commit suicide. The above example could potentially go on indefinitely, but my opponent would inevitably paint himself into a corner and never conclusively prove “God is a bully.” What he WOULD prove is he doesn’t like God. It never fails. It’s just that predictable. The only way to win is to not play.

Another brief example: Suppose that I as a Christian were to prove God’s existence by first accepting the premise that God doesn’t exist and then proceed with, say, the cosmological argument for God, I’d still be arguing to doomsday and never get anywhere. And yet it is a common trap newb Christians fall into when discussing their faith with unbelievers.

It’s strikingly predictable, which is why I don’t mind handing over my playbook. There’s no response from me you can’t predict, and I already know where you’re going. So why bother? These debates are pointless.

The key to civility if any is to be had is to call people out on technicalities. The anti-theist pattern I’m most familiar with is stooping to calling the theist a poopy-head, or some equivalent. I gently remind them and name-calling and personal attacks do not make them right. I’ll get back something like “if rational arguments don’t work, the only thing left is mockery.” So I remind them of the obvious, that they are done with the discussion if they can’t offer anything more intelligent than mockery. Rack ‘em up, let’s play again. Most of the time I’ve succeeded in getting a discussion back on track with civility.

DentArthurDent was the toughest nut for me to crack. But we could go page after page without ridicule. I called him out more than once for losing patience, but we always got back to a level-headed discussion. You just have to stay calm and monotonous. Listen to NPR and you’ll get the idea. It’s like those people are perpetually stoned or something. Your anti-theist opponent will hate that, but it’s EFFECTIVE.

Also note I use the term anti-theist. Atheists either say “there is no God” (easy argument to dismantle) or “I do not believe there is a God” (slick, not as easy to work with, but still possible to combat). Agnostics are more “I don’t know there is a God, and evidence is lacking.” Neither on their own are aggressive, ugly, or unfriendly (see the Friendly Atheist website), or even unreasonable. But there are those atheists and agnostics who are actively opposed to religion. Those types are more my bread and butter. Someone just getting into apologetics may not want to go up against these guys initially, but there are ways of conversing with them once you get some experience under your belt. Just remember what I said earlier and don’t lose your cool.