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Kraichgauer
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10 Oct 2017, 10:47 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they thought the Allies were on the wrong side, because they hold their racist, fascist ideology over American idealism.

Well, I don't know whose allies you're referring to, cuz America and Germany were against each other. I'm thinking that you mean that those allied with America, were on the wrong side, and that the NN feel that America and her allies, should have allied with Germany? If that's what you mean, I don't agree that that's their ideology----I believe that at least PART of their ideology is, simply: "America FIRST".

Kraichgauer wrote:
As for defending the truth - what truth is that? That it's alright to hate certain people simply for who they are?

No. I feel that truth is arrived-at, by not going-with the very first reaction that someone (myself, included) has, upon hearing / reading an account of an event, for instance----a reaction that is most probably emotionally-driven----and giving thought / consideration to ALL angles of an issue / person / situation / whatever.

Kraichgauer wrote:
As a matter of fact, that goes against the very philosophy that America was built on - equality, justice, and equal opportunity for everybody.

Yes, but, IMO, they don't agree that that should apply to everybody, and that's why they are regarded by many (myself, included), as despicable people----but, IMO, that doesn't mean, that they're against America; they just want everybody in America to be WASPs.

Kraichgauer wrote:
If racists can't stand by American idealism, then they don't love America the most.

But, the IDEA of what constitutes "American idealism" is subjective, is it not? I mean, even though every American on here, is against THEIR idea of American idealism, look how many differences of opinion, exist, just on this site, ALONE, regarding what Americans feel is right for America, and how things should be run, and so-forth----but, that doesn't mean that any of us, Americans, are AGAINST America.


Yes, Germany and America were on opposite sides during WWII, which is why some of them believe America should have been fighting alongside Hitler, because he held to the same sort of racism and fascism they do today.
The point of America is, everybody is supposed to be included, which is why their racial exclusion is Anti-American.
There are different interpretations of what America is all about, but to say that it's supposed to be about excluding others because of who or what they are IS against the ideal of America. A gay person in San Francisco's Castro District can be far more patriotic than a white nationalist, as can an African American living in Mississippi.


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Kraichgauer
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10 Oct 2017, 10:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As a matter of fact, that goes against the very philosophy that America was built on - equality, justice, and equal opportunity for everybody.

Just that it took Americans 200 yrs to work out that "everybody" included all human beings


Better late than never. :lol:


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10 Oct 2017, 11:39 pm

wowiexist wrote:
It seems like nobody is talking about the fact that he used taxpayer money to do this. He knew that they would kneel and that he would leave early. He used taxpayer funds to fly there and pay secret service to go with him as well as the tickets to the game knowing that the whole thing was just a publicity stunt. I don't know how Republicans can justify this and talk about how Democrats are fiscally irresponsible.


Everybody knows GOP folk are afflicted with selective blindness regarding fuel bills.

My car's average is only ~27MPG on a good day & even that looks flattering compared to 6000 pound trucks and Jet-A.


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10 Oct 2017, 11:42 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Checkmate.

Trump wins.

"The NFL might make it mandatory to stand for the national anthem"
http://m.theweek.com/speedreads/730066/ ... nal-anthem

Image


I thought our soldiers died for the right of people to choose whether to stand or not for the national anthem. Isn't kind of a slap in the face towards them to undo basic freedoms like that which they died for?

Also will it just be mandatory for the athletes or the audience as well?

They don't have to stand.

Heck, they can quit the team if they feel strongly about it.



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11 Oct 2017, 12:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Germany and America were on opposite sides during WWII, which is why some of them believe America should have been fighting alongside Hitler, because he held to the same sort of racism and fascism they do today.
The point of America is, everybody is supposed to be included, which is why their racial exclusion is Anti-American.
There are different interpretations of what America is all about, but to say that it's supposed to be about excluding others because of who or what they are IS against the ideal of America. A gay person in San Francisco's Castro District can be far more patriotic than a white nationalist, as can an African American living in Mississippi.


I completely forgot that the FDR had a difficult time to get congress to agree to intervene against the Axis powers. I imagine there was reluctance on the part of mainstream Americans to see Hitler as a threat (at the time)?



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11 Oct 2017, 1:18 am

It's amusing how many threads become a discussion about Nazi Germany on a daily basis.



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11 Oct 2017, 2:49 am

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Campin_Cat wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Checkmate. Trump wins.

"The NFL might make it mandatory to stand for the national anthem"
http://m.theweek.com/speedreads/730066/ ... nal-anthem

WOO-HOO!! I hope this comes to fruition----AND, I hope it stands as the precedent for any other group that doesn't know that even the First Amendment comes with limitations (that a company/organization CAN say "No")! !








...Well, alrighty then :| . Can I count you as desiring employment conditions for NFL (and other pro leagues too I guess where:
Any demonstration during or around the anthem other than a Trump/Rush-desired full stand may be - After, say, " three strikes "? - punished with with player being droppped by his team, for no other reason? (I'll leave the question of how this might work out financially for a possible later discussion.)


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11 Oct 2017, 6:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Germany and America were on opposite sides during WWII, which is why some of them believe America should have been fighting alongside Hitler, because he held to the same sort of racism and fascism they do today.
The point of America is, everybody is supposed to be included, which is why their racial exclusion is Anti-American.
There are different interpretations of what America is all about, but to say that it's supposed to be about excluding others because of who or what they are IS against the ideal of America. A gay person in San Francisco's Castro District can be far more patriotic than a white nationalist, as can an African American living in Mississippi.


I completely forgot that the FDR had a difficult time to get congress to agree to intervene against the Axis powers. I imagine there was reluctance on the part of mainstream Americans to see Hitler as a threat (at the time)?








...There was the old " isolationist tradition ", or that's how it was described in history books when I was a kid, too.


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Kraichgauer
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11 Oct 2017, 10:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Germany and America were on opposite sides during WWII, which is why some of them believe America should have been fighting alongside Hitler, because he held to the same sort of racism and fascism they do today.
The point of America is, everybody is supposed to be included, which is why their racial exclusion is Anti-American.
There are different interpretations of what America is all about, but to say that it's supposed to be about excluding others because of who or what they are IS against the ideal of America. A gay person in San Francisco's Castro District can be far more patriotic than a white nationalist, as can an African American living in Mississippi.


I completely forgot that the FDR had a difficult time to get congress to agree to intervene against the Axis powers. I imagine there was reluctance on the part of mainstream Americans to see Hitler as a threat (at the time)?


That of course all changed when Japan attacked up at Pearl Harbor, followed by Hitler declaring war on us.


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11 Oct 2017, 11:48 am

ASS-P wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Germany and America were on opposite sides during WWII, which is why some of them believe America should have been fighting alongside Hitler, because he held to the same sort of racism and fascism they do today.
The point of America is, everybody is supposed to be included, which is why their racial exclusion is Anti-American.
There are different interpretations of what America is all about, but to say that it's supposed to be about excluding others because of who or what they are IS against the ideal of America. A gay person in San Francisco's Castro District can be far more patriotic than a white nationalist, as can an African American living in Mississippi.


I completely forgot that the FDR had a difficult time to get congress to agree to intervene against the Axis powers. I imagine there was reluctance on the part of mainstream Americans to see Hitler as a threat (at the time)?





...There was the old " isolationist tradition ", or that's how it was described in history books when I was a kid, too.


It was isolationism and a lot more. There was a real American Nazi movement that was a lot bigger than then the few dozen troublemakers in Charlottesville.



There were American companies that had business interests in Nazi Germany.


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11 Oct 2017, 1:20 pm

Their vision for America (and in fact even some of those neo-con folk today) would be a dire one where all minorities were kicked out and the words of the Statue of Liberty would become meaningless. Perhaps France would take it back! :D :idea:

America under some of those "patriots" would be a corrupt police-state regime where no minorities of any kind would feel safe.


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11 Oct 2017, 1:23 pm

Here are the words to The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


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11 Oct 2017, 2:17 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
What does this kneeling hurt, if they were being disruptive throughout the game in an effort to 'protest' I'd understand the uproar. But they simply kneel instead of stand people can choose not to join in and then still enjoy the stupid game.

What "this kneeling" hurts, IMO, is an ENTIRE nation, where the majority, doesn't agree with it. Like I said, before, I feel a BETTER question would be: What does this kneeling HELP? I mean, do you honestly think that their taking a knee does ANYTHING for whom they feel are victims of police brutality? Do you ACTUALLY think that the next time a cop pulls a gun on a black man, he's gonna stop and think "Uh, oh, better not do THAT, cuz the football players think that's wrong for me to do", and put his gun-away?

Also, like I said, before..... I feel this is about much MORE than them, supposedly, "wanting to help"----because, if they TRULY wanted to help, they'd be putting boots-on-the-ground and WORKING (working for a solution), instead of putting KNEES-on-the-ground and DEFYING.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Also not sure I agree that an employer can force you to make a political/patriotic demonstration you don't want to, I do not think that is a proper 'limitation' on free speech.

Employers can have all KINDS of rules----and, if one wants to remain employed, they'll follow them; simple as that. If one can obtain a job where they really like the work, and can live-with the rules, GREAT; but, life isn't always like that.




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11 Oct 2017, 2:26 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Here are the words to The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


Ironically, it was Stephen Miller, the White House staffer, himself Jewish and very probably a descendant of those yearning to be free, who had made light of that poem. I have to wonder if he knows what his white nationalist friends would do to him if they ever were in charge.


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11 Oct 2017, 2:37 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What does this kneeling hurt, if they were being disruptive throughout the game in an effort to 'protest' I'd understand the uproar. But they simply kneel instead of stand people can choose not to join in and then still enjoy the stupid game.

What "this kneeling" hurts, IMO, is an ENTIRE nation, where the majority, doesn't agree with it. Like I said, before, I feel a BETTER question would be: What does this kneeling HELP? I mean, do you honestly think that their taking a knee does ANYTHING for whom they feel are victims of police brutality? Do you ACTUALLY think that the next time a cop pulls a gun on a black man, he's gonna stop and think "Uh, oh, better not do THAT, cuz the football players think that's wrong for me to do", and put his gun-away?

Also, like I said, before..... I feel this is about much MORE than them, supposedly, "wanting to help"----because, if they TRULY wanted to help, they'd be putting boots-on-the-ground and WORKING (working for a solution), instead of putting KNEES-on-the-ground and DEFYING.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Also not sure I agree that an employer can force you to make a political/patriotic demonstration you don't want to, I do not think that is a proper 'limitation' on free speech.

Employers can have all KINDS of rules----and, if one wants to remain employed, they'll follow them; simple as that. If one can obtain a job where they really like the work, and can live-with the rules, GREAT; but, life isn't always like that.


Taking the knee during the anthem hardly hurts our country. And as a matter of fact, it does quite possibly help - it brings greater public attention to this problem of police abuse.
After WWI, there was also a hard turn to the right among the American public. When two American anarchists during a parade had not stood and covered their hearts for the passing flag, the rest of the crowd beat them to death. No one is threatening the lives of those players (that I know of), but essentially this represents the same sort of rabidly intolerant nationalism masquerading as American patriotism.


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11 Oct 2017, 3:02 pm

A letter signed by vets supporting the right to kneel during the anthem.
https://theundefeated.com/features/an-o ... aepernick/


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