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Male disposability in life & dating

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magz
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16 Oct 2017, 2:57 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^ I've spent 6 months of hell unemployed seeking non-stop for a new job after my last workplace went bankrupt 3 years ago. I tried it all and heard all the same excuses (too qualified, needs more experience, not exactly the same what we want, ...etc).

I was considering to open a small food outlet, I was about to give up on ever getting a job again. The older you get the harder it becomes (when I was 25s I found 3 job offers at a time, now it's impossible to repeat that) and the longer you stay unemployed the more it raises eyebrows (it's like how women judge virgin or single-for-ages guys lol). And the trend on wanting "excellent communication skills" even for totally tech jobs that have nothing with people reached the roofs.

And who recruited me at the end? It's my former GM who summoned me and who's the CEO of his new startup. So it was pure luck, if it wasn't for luck I would have probably remained jobless.

Okay, so you weren't avoiding job but your local economy is not exactly in a good shape. I remember worse times in Poland, outside big cities it is still not very good, lots of people from there get low status jobs in the West and North of EU.
I'm living in the most employed city in the whole country. AFAIK Hurtloam lives in the UK, where only the lowest social classes struggle with finding anything. So our answers carry some geographical bias.

And there is all the difference me and Hurtloam were talking about - not the fact of unemployment counts. The reason counts.

And thank you for your answer :)


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16 Oct 2017, 3:08 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^ I've spent 6 months of hell unemployed seeking non-stop for a new job after my last workplace went bankrupt 3 years ago. I tried it all and heard all the same excuses (too qualified, needs more experience, not exactly the same what we want, ...etc). I've even paid to make peer-reviewed resumes.

I was considering to open a small food outlet, I was about to give up on ever getting a job again. The older you get the harder it becomes (when I was 25s I found 3 job offers at a time, now it's impossible to repeat that) and the longer you stay unemployed the more it raises eyebrows (it's like how women judge virgin or single-for-ages guys lol). And the trend on wanting "excellent communication skills" even for totally tech jobs that have nothing with people reached the roofs.

And who recruited me at the end? It's my former GM who summoned me and who's the CEO of his new startup. So it was pure luck, if it wasn't for luck I would have probably remained jobless.

So 'seeking for a job' is no guarantee that one will find a job, especially for someone who relies on online job boards, and who has a very little network of people and doesn't know personally powerful people. Saying otherwise it's like saying that messaging girls on dating apps will guarantee a girlfriend lol (and that's so laughable, because there are way more guys (= job seekers) than women (employers) on these dating apps (=job sites), so it's impossible that there's one for everyone ).


Ah but you were seeking. That's different to giving up and not looking. I can support a seeker.

Anyway you can't say you wouldn't have found a job. You don't know. The overwualified rejection is the most annoying. I've had that.

6 months was the time frame I had moving on from a couple of my jobs when I was looking. Thankfully I was still employed at the time. I think thats to be expected, about 6 months to find something suitable. It sucks when you're going through it though. Each rejection is another blow. Its demoralising.



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16 Oct 2017, 6:20 pm

hurtloam wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
No one can tell whether unemployement can be temporary or permanent, you can't read the future.

So your real answer means No, I take it. Hm!


Nonsense. There's a big difference between a person who is looking for a job and a person who is not looking. I don't know anyone who has never found another job ever again. Apart from people who are seriously ill or over 50.

In my last place of work everyone was made redundant at all levels. I'm seeing them on linked in slowly getting new jobs one after the other.


I looked for years alone and didn’t find work. Tools two years with professional job hunters and career coaches to find this min wage job they gave up free being me a job that pays above min wage. The government who paid for it all gave up week before Got this job



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16 Oct 2017, 6:26 pm

hurtloam wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^ I've spent 6 months of hell unemployed seeking non-stop for a new job after my last workplace went bankrupt 3 years ago. I tried it all and heard all the same excuses (too qualified, needs more experience, not exactly the same what we want, ...etc). I've even paid to make peer-reviewed resumes.

I was considering to open a small food outlet, I was about to give up on ever getting a job again. The older you get the harder it becomes (when I was 25s I found 3 job offers at a time, now it's impossible to repeat that) and the longer you stay unemployed the more it raises eyebrows (it's like how women judge virgin or single-for-ages guys lol). And the trend on wanting "excellent communication skills" even for totally tech jobs that have nothing with people reached the roofs.

And who recruited me at the end? It's my former GM who summoned me and who's the CEO of his new startup. So it was pure luck, if it wasn't for luck I would have probably remained jobless.

So 'seeking for a job' is no guarantee that one will find a job, especially for someone who relies on online job boards, and who has a very little network of people and doesn't know personally powerful people. Saying otherwise it's like saying that messaging girls on dating apps will guarantee a girlfriend lol (and that's so laughable, because there are way more guys (= job seekers) than women (employers) on these dating apps (=job sites), so it's impossible that there's one for everyone ).


Ah but you were seeking. That's different to giving up and not looking. I can support a seeker.

Anyway you can't say you wouldn't have found a job. You don't know. The overwualified rejection is the most annoying. I've had that.

6 months was the time frame I had moving on from a couple of my jobs when I was looking. Thankfully I was still employed at the time. I think thats to be expected, about 6 months to find something suitable. It sucks when you're going through it though. Each rejection is another blow. Its demoralising.


How long do you expect him to keep seeking before he gives up? Should he spend 40 years constantly seeking work? Without income that’s going be expensive and since he’s unemployed unless he gets benifits or government aid you have to foot the bill.

Would you date a permanently low paid guy like he’ll never make more besides gradual pay increases?

Same question to you magz.

I’m on disability and work part time min wage that’s not likely to ever change so would you date a guy in such a situation knowing he’ll never be the dream provider guy?
I have a steady source of income it’s just not a lot.



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16 Oct 2017, 9:12 pm

Low paid isnt the same as unemployed in my view.

Having low paid job is better than not working because you're being industrious. Even if the job is dull I think it gives a sense of accomplishment. Something to make you get out of bed.

I found it difficult to find work right out of school. I got nothing but rejections. I did a college course for a year and then found work straight away. I do understand how difficult it is to get a foot in the door. Employers want experience, but how do you get experience when you can't get a job? Catch22.

You've got experience now and may find it easier to get work the next time you look for a job.

Also I've never heard of someone never finding a job their whole life unless they were seriously mentally disabled.

Honestly, someone like that would not be on the same level as me intelligence wise and therefore I doubt we'd be compatible. If he can't function well enough to a basic job or communicate well enough to get someone to hire him, how will he cope with a relationship? Sounds liked I'd be a carer not a partner.

Conversely, even though I have a job that doesn't mean I have the emotional skills to be a good partner myself. I might actually be rubbish at it. I still think just the job isnt enough.

My biggest issues are with communication and that's a key requirement to get a relationship off the ground let alone maintain one.

I also tend to get very upset and frustrated when I can't convey what I need to and don't understand what the other person needs from me. That's a big issue for a potential partner. It's an issue for me in a work situation I'm going through at the moment. I'm frustrated.

It's my ability that's the issue and how my brain works processing information and working out what others need from me.

That's a bigger issue than anything we usually talk about in L&D.



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16 Oct 2017, 9:22 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Outsider, in the Western cultures, the majority of your women don't seem much interested in STEM.

But in Russia, Middle East and south Asia, STEM degrees holders are 50% and more women (the work market is a different story tho).


Ironically, Iran and the Gulf countries, which are the most non-women friendly cultures in the world have the highest % of Women graduates in STEM.

http://www.wam.org.ae/en/details/1395302606617

Quote:
According to UNESCO, women constitute over 60 percent of Arab countries’ science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, graduates. The forum is taking active measures to enhance women's participation in the Middle East’s robust and rapidly growing aviation sector, which contributes over US$157.2 billion to the GDP and generates more than 2.4 million jobs. In Dubai alone, the aviation industry is estimated to contribute 37.5 per cent to its GDP and support over 750,000 jobs by 2020.



Women's freedom and interest in STEM don't seem to be much correlated even within Mideast cultures; Lebanon for example is a much friendlier culture to women (in many ways, including the way of dressing, veil is not imposed, no restrictions on dressing except private parts) than the Gulf countries, but yet 51% of STEM graduates are women while in the Gulf it's 60%, I am not sure about Israel (yet, I view Israel as a totally Western culture).

Image.


This is unrelated to women in STEM but Iran is a strange country. It's population, at least in the metropolitan areas, was very culturally western before the religious revolution and "under the veil" it still is very culturally western, perhaps with the exception of family life. Iran is more culturally similar to the U.S. than Saudi Arabia.



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17 Oct 2017, 1:21 am

Chronos wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Outsider, in the Western cultures, the majority of your women don't seem much interested in STEM.

But in Russia, Middle East and south Asia, STEM degrees holders are 50% and more women (the work market is a different story tho).


Ironically, Iran and the Gulf countries, which are the most non-women friendly cultures in the world have the highest % of Women graduates in STEM.

http://www.wam.org.ae/en/details/1395302606617

Quote:
According to UNESCO, women constitute over 60 percent of Arab countries’ science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, graduates. The forum is taking active measures to enhance women's participation in the Middle East’s robust and rapidly growing aviation sector, which contributes over US$157.2 billion to the GDP and generates more than 2.4 million jobs. In Dubai alone, the aviation industry is estimated to contribute 37.5 per cent to its GDP and support over 750,000 jobs by 2020.



Women's freedom and interest in STEM don't seem to be much correlated even within Mideast cultures; Lebanon for example is a much friendlier culture to women (in many ways, including the way of dressing, veil is not imposed, no restrictions on dressing except private parts) than the Gulf countries, but yet 51% of STEM graduates are women while in the Gulf it's 60%, I am not sure about Israel (yet, I view Israel as a totally Western culture).

[img]https://contexts.org/files/2011/05/what-gender-is-science-1.png[/img.


This is unrelated to women in STEM but Iran is a strange country. It's population, at least in the metropolitan areas, was very culturally western before the religious revolution and "under the veil" it still is very culturally western, perhaps with the exception of family life. Iran is more culturally similar to the U.S. than Saudi Arabia.


Iran, before the stupid "revolution" and the "great" sharia law took over, was pretty much like modern Turkey.

The story of Iran is sad really, and I don't think it will ever back any soon. Giving their regime more international legitimacy just makes this more hopeless.

Iran should be a lesson to all that a country can be transformed overnight by sharia law.





And now we have Iran by proxy right here; trying to apply sharia lifestyle whenever they can - thanks the gods that half of my country's population is Christians otherwise we would have ended up like Iran.



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17 Oct 2017, 3:40 am

sly279 wrote:
How long do you expect him to keep seeking before he gives up? Should he spend 40 years constantly seeking work? Without income that’s going be expensive and since he’s unemployed unless he gets benifits or government aid you have to foot the bill.

Would you date a permanently low paid guy like he’ll never make more besides gradual pay increases?

Same question to you magz.

I’m on disability and work part time min wage that’s not likely to ever change so would you date a guy in such a situation knowing he’ll never be the dream provider guy?
I have a steady source of income it’s just not a lot.

Do you ask me if I would be interested in a guy like you - if it wasn't for the fact that I am married etc.?

I am a STEM girl from a family of doctors, scientists and engineers. I know what you may image but we weren't wealthy - it was beyond the Iron Curtain, the farmers were much better off here with their easy access to fresh meat. Even after the transformation I was surprised to learn that my family lived near to what was a definition of poverty line. And I know I can live quite happily like that, I've learned to have little needs.

But it may be because of the men of my childhood, my father and uncle, both skilled in electronics - a man who can't solder is not really a man to me. It is stronger than me. I couldn't form a good relationship with a boy who was skilled in something else but not math and mechanics. Even if he could earn big money on it (like law or finances) - he wasn't a man enough for me. I am attracted to engineers.

If we still lived in our previous regime, the said engineer would earn laughable money for all his life. Like my father. Anyway, he would be my choice.


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17 Oct 2017, 4:05 am

magz wrote:
sly279 wrote:
How long do you expect him to keep seeking before he gives up? Should he spend 40 years constantly seeking work? Without income that’s going be expensive and since he’s unemployed unless he gets benifits or government aid you have to foot the bill.

Would you date a permanently low paid guy like he’ll never make more besides gradual pay increases?

Same question to you magz.

I’m on disability and work part time min wage that’s not likely to ever change so would you date a guy in such a situation knowing he’ll never be the dream provider guy?
I have a steady source of income it’s just not a lot.

Do you ask me if I would be interested in a guy like you - if it wasn't for the fact that I am married etc.?

I am a STEM girl from a family of doctors, scientists and engineers. I know what you may image but we weren't wealthy - it was beyond the Iron Curtain, the farmers were much better off here with their easy access to fresh meat. Even after the transformation I was surprised to learn that my family lived near to what was a definition of poverty line. And I know I can live quite happily like that, I've learned to have little needs.

But it may be because of the men of my childhood, my father and uncle, both skilled in electronics - a man who can't solder is not really a man to me. It is stronger than me. I couldn't form a good relationship with a boy who was skilled in something else but not math and mechanics. Even if he could earn big money on it (like law or finances) - he wasn't a man enough for me. I am attracted to engineers.

So, sorry, you are not my type.


By definition, a man is any adult human male. Period.

Women, all of you, seriously, yeah including you who's reading that right now....stop creating your own definitions of what's a man and what's not, imagine men saying "women who are not X or don't have Y are not real women to me".

It's demeaning, so stop it, ok?



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 17 Oct 2017, 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Oct 2017, 4:08 am

Saying someone isn’t a “real man” for whatever reason is sexist.



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17 Oct 2017, 4:11 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
magz wrote:
sly279 wrote:
How long do you expect him to keep seeking before he gives up? Should he spend 40 years constantly seeking work? Without income that’s going be expensive and since he’s unemployed unless he gets benifits or government aid you have to foot the bill.

Would you date a permanently low paid guy like he’ll never make more besides gradual pay increases?

Same question to you magz.

I’m on disability and work part time min wage that’s not likely to ever change so would you date a guy in such a situation knowing he’ll never be the dream provider guy?
I have a steady source of income it’s just not a lot.

Do you ask me if I would be interested in a guy like you - if it wasn't for the fact that I am married etc.?

I am a STEM girl from a family of doctors, scientists and engineers. I know what you may image but we weren't wealthy - it was beyond the Iron Curtain, the farmers were much better off here with their easy access to fresh meat. Even after the transformation I was surprised to learn that my family lived near to what was a definition of poverty line. And I know I can live quite happily like that, I've learned to have little needs.

But it may be because of the men of my childhood, my father and uncle, both skilled in electronics - a man who can't solder is not really a man to me. It is stronger than me. I couldn't form a good relationship with a boy who was skilled in something else but not math and mechanics. Even if he could earn big money on it (like law or finances) - he wasn't a man enough for me. I am attracted to engineers.

So, sorry, you are not my type.


By definition, a man is any adult human male. Period.

Women, all of you, seriously, yeah including you who's reading that right now....stop creating your own definitions of what's a man and what's not, imagine men saying "women who are not X or don't have Y are not real women to me".

It's demeaning, so stop it, ok?


I agree, it's annoying.

It's also very unscientific.



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17 Oct 2017, 4:19 am

I don't say it generally.
Sly asked for my personal opinion.
I know other women can see it totally differently. Great! Diversity is good for gene pool and society!
But if a man can have a preference for tall/short/dumb/smart/blonde/black/whatever women, why can't I have a preference for engineers?


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17 Oct 2017, 4:37 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
magz wrote:
sly279 wrote:
How long do you expect him to keep seeking before he gives up? Should he spend 40 years constantly seeking work? Without income that’s going be expensive and since he’s unemployed unless he gets benifits or government aid you have to foot the bill.

Would you date a permanently low paid guy like he’ll never make more besides gradual pay increases?

Same question to you magz.

I’m on disability and work part time min wage that’s not likely to ever change so would you date a guy in such a situation knowing he’ll never be the dream provider guy?
I have a steady source of income it’s just not a lot.

Do you ask me if I would be interested in a guy like you - if it wasn't for the fact that I am married etc.?

I am a STEM girl from a family of doctors, scientists and engineers. I know what you may image but we weren't wealthy - it was beyond the Iron Curtain, the farmers were much better off here with their easy access to fresh meat. Even after the transformation I was surprised to learn that my family lived near to what was a definition of poverty line. And I know I can live quite happily like that, I've learned to have little needs.

But it may be because of the men of my childhood, my father and uncle, both skilled in electronics - a man who can't solder is not really a man to me. It is stronger than me. I couldn't form a good relationship with a boy who was skilled in something else but not math and mechanics. Even if he could earn big money on it (like law or finances) - he wasn't a man enough for me. I am attracted to engineers.

So, sorry, you are not my type.


By definition, a man is any adult human male. Period.

Women, all of you, seriously, yeah including you who's reading that right now....stop creating your own definitions of what's a man and what's not, imagine men saying "women who are not X or don't have Y are not real women to me".

It's demeaning, so stop it, ok?


I think she is using "man" as in "attractive to me", which I think is totally ok. I don't think we could (or should) stop women from finding certain traits in men attractive and other traits less attractive. That's just how it is, and we men find certain traits attractive in women and other's less attractive, so we are no better.

I think women that likes STEM are super-attractive, especially if they are also neurodiverse.



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17 Oct 2017, 4:38 am

magz wrote:
I don't say it generally.
Sly asked for my personal opinion.
I know other women can see it totally differently. Great! Diversity is good for gene pool and society!
But if a man can have a preference for tall/short/dumb/smart/blonde/black/whatever women, why can't I have a preference for engineers?


We never said you couldn't.

I just would't ever say that a woman who doesn't match my prefences, isn't a real woman.

We need to stop this 'real man' nonsense.



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17 Oct 2017, 4:42 am

You are right, I should use words more wisely.
I meant "attractive as a man in my eyes", not a human male or masculine in general.
Sorry if it sounded offensive.
BTW - guys in my country say things like "women should have big breasts and like cooking", even without "to me", so I am desensitized to this, didn't see the line of offence. Sorry.


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17 Oct 2017, 6:07 am

Too late magz, we are throwing you to the crocodiles.