Why do feminism blame everything on white males?

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Closet Genious
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04 Nov 2017, 4:01 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Can't speak for the entire world, but at least for a lot of the western world white males have been the main oppressors of women. If it wasn't for some historical feminists who fought to gain equal rights here in the U.S....I wouldn't be able to vote and the only role I could hope for would be 'stay at home house-wife' hell probably wouldn't even be allowed to drive. It was white males those women had to challenge to gain equal rights in the U.S for instance. Though currently it is more well of white christian males who are out of touch that are seen as problematic, people like Jeff Sessions who can't possibly represent the best interests of the diverse population here.


I think what a lot of people really don't historically understand, probably because there's no reflection of it in their life circumstances, is that feminism and women's lib was made possible by advances in medical technology where infant mortality was brought down exponentially and additional help came from the various forms of technology that allowed both men and women to get household work done quicker. Otherwise, just by brute force, to have a family only one person could work outside the home.

This had a lot less to do with men just being mean, bad, or wanting to oppress women and a lot to do with us being able to take for granted a lot of things that weren't available at the time. When something has also been status quo for thousands of years it's not likely to change until perhaps several generations after its groundwork was laid and I think a lot of that groundwork came in the form of the industrial revolution. For most of human history we've been in survival mode and as we know, by looking around the rest of the world where living conditions are still in that format, the choices that people and communities have without modern amenities is pretty wretched and cruel generally speaking.

The other part that's probably important to consider as well - back when we were largely an agrarian society there really wasn't a divide, ie. both men and women were doing most of their work domestically and it was only a significant rise of commercial activity that drew men out in the first place.


I am well read in history, but I don't think men today should be held accountable for actions made by men before them, actions they had absolutely nothing to do with. That's just evil and wrong.

A small correction in your post: That help didn't just "come from technology". It came largely form men inventing those technologies. I suppose because these men were actually interested in helping women.

I think alot of people don't historically understand, that the world is not, and never was just completely black and white. I don't know why we can never say anything positive about men.



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04 Nov 2017, 4:13 pm

You can say positive things about men; only those who don't want to debate will say otherwise. It's not worth debating with those who don't really want to debate, of any political stripe.


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Closet Genious
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04 Nov 2017, 4:44 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
You can say positive things about men; only those who don't want to debate will say otherwise. It's not worth debating with those who don't really want to debate, of any political stripe.


I am just very frustrated with the political and ideological landscape in my country. It's completely static and one sided, "white men are horrible" has been the main message the past 20 years. Us men here don't feel like we can say anything. Putting our fellow men, and ourselves down is the only possible position, because it's the most attractive and morally superior position. My only choice is to sit there and get yelled at by people who have never done a good deed in their lives.

I think we have reached a point now, where we need to conclude that there is absolutely nothing heroic or courageous about just pointing fingers at white men, especially as a man. If you do this as a man, you are in my opinion, just a weak man looking for a shortcut to status. Also, I just can't see how this kind of polarizing talk is going to get us anywhere.



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04 Nov 2017, 5:06 pm

Well, keep thinking and listening. Just because few people are doing it, doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. There's satisfaction to be found in trying to uncover the truth of any matter. I can't think what we're here for, otherwise.

I get that in Scandinavia, the conformity expected on matters of opinion probably feels stifling. It does in the UK if one sticks to certain circles. Even the finger-pointers though, are frightened human beings trying to do their best.

I'm not one of these people who think all viewpoints are equally valid; some positions are crap, imho. However, the person who came up with those crappy views, and the process by which they arrived at them - that's interesting. There are people (even entire cultures) that seek agreement before understanding, but that has things backwards.

I don't know, you could maybe move to a more individualistic country, or you could try to not let the social control get to you. Every society needs people who think differently.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Nov 2017, 6:18 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
I am well read in history, but I don't think men today should be held accountable for actions made by men before them, actions they had absolutely nothing to do with. That's just evil and wrong.

When people really want to stare at the quagmire of the past and pull everyone else's face into it there's good point in raising the question - to what end? Is what we were looking at good? Do we want more of it? If not why the fixation?

Closet Genious wrote:
A small correction in your post: That help didn't just "come from technology". It came largely form men inventing those technologies. I suppose because these men were actually interested in helping women.

:heart:

Closet Genious wrote:
I think alot of people don't historically understand, that the world is not, and never was just completely black and white. I don't know why we can never say anything positive about men.

That's just the unfortunate flavor of the generation. I think also, while everyone's so busily looking at masculinity and femininity in the most destructive and skeptical manners possible, that we would be wiser to also look at the good in them and what they're capable of if they're not wrapped in or emblematic of destructive competition. I think we can say that as a race (human) we've dominated the earth, we aren't going to be eaten generally speaking by other animals, so the most important thing we can do is calm down, focus, and think about what we want the future to be - or at least meditate on that far more often than we find ourselves dwelling on past mistakes.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Nov 2017, 6:43 pm

Really great article by Angel Millar and I'd fully agree with him - to be the Nietzschean superman of the future, in the best possible sense of the word, is to cook the dross out of our images of masculinity from the past and see what it's capable of for good, for art, and for beauty in the future.

https://phalx.com/2017/11/04/the-declin ... c-manhood/

Also I'd really hope there are authors as thoughtful examining what it is to be the superwoman of the future. We're both phoenixes trying to rise from the ashes here. Hopefully the 2020's can be a lot more gender-positive if we're going to take it all back in a different direction again anyway.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 04 Nov 2017, 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Nov 2017, 6:57 pm

Closet Genious, I don't understand why you don't like people generalizing white men, but then go and generalize feminists.



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04 Nov 2017, 9:38 pm

I also find it strange how SJW feminists want to paint all homophobes as white men but after being around the aforementioned hip hoppers, I saw plenty of African American and Hispanic males say things like "f**k you, fa***t!" and see any sort of perceived weakness as being "gay". Many also called themselves Christians and said "gayness" is against God.



techstepgenr8tion
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04 Nov 2017, 10:10 pm

Hmm, Lauren Southern now echoing Computing Forever's point.


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Closet Genious
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05 Nov 2017, 8:21 am

TheAP wrote:
Closet Genious, I don't understand why you don't like people generalizing white men, but then go and generalize feminists.


Because I was born a white man, nobody is born a feminist. Me being a white man doesn't say anything about my individual beliefs or values. You can't say anything general about white men, other than the fact that they're white, and they're men.

Feminism is a political ideology, which believes in social construction and patriarchy. I have never seen a feminist who didn't hold those beliefs.


So generalizing about white men, is the same as generalizing about other groups of people where the only unifying factor is race and gender: Black men are like this, asian women are like that ect.

Generalizing feminists is the same as generalizing other political or ideological groups: Marxists are like that, conservatives are like this ect.
These are people who have chosen to align themselves with certain ideas and beliefs.

Why would you even call yourself a feminist if you don't believe the same things as the majority of feminists?



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05 Nov 2017, 6:30 pm

Marknis wrote:
I also find it strange how SJW feminists want to paint all homophobes as white men but after being around the aforementioned hip hoppers, I saw plenty of African American and Hispanic males say things like "f**k you, fa***t!" and see any sort of perceived weakness as being "gay". Many also called themselves Christians and said "gayness" is against God.


nobody is more homophobic than muslims.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -morality/



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05 Nov 2017, 6:31 pm

TheAP wrote:
Closet Genious, I don't understand why you don't like people generalizing white men, but then go and generalize feminists.


Left-feminist. They share the same political ideology which is anti-white.



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05 Nov 2017, 6:36 pm

Because they are angry, and it's OK to blame white men. Straight white men are the only people you can attack without being accused of some kind of 'ism'. Unless they have a disability I guess, and maybe soon ginger hair.


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05 Nov 2017, 9:31 pm

There is a semi-valid reason: White cis male oppression is the freshest memory and most present and personal example of misogyny available in the minds of most Western feminists (and frankly, most of the people experiencing misogyny from African, Indian, or Arab men don’t have the luxury of being outspoken feminists— they’re too busy trying not to die today). Things like shari’a and FGM and acid attacks and honor killings just don’t compute in their real, visceral, personal experience. It’s not a whole lot more real than the last episode of Walking Dead, and less relatable.

There’s also a reason that I don’t consider valid at all, and frankly it scares the living piss-water out of me and constitutes a fair bit of the reason I turned my back on liberalism for all I retain a lot of the fundamentally Socialist values I was raised with. Somewhere along the line, “more radical,” “more in-your-face” and et cetera became associated, and then equated, with “more progressive,” “more intelligent,” and “more better.” I don’t know WHEN that happen, but I know it was the case when I was in college (‘96-‘01, and then off and on until ‘06). It got worse and worse and worse until I got so disgusted with it I chose to tell them to shove their MA/MFA and just make a bunch of babies instead; it doesn’t seem to have improved any in the decade-and-change I’ve spent mopping floors and wiping noses and generally trying to inculcate some critical thinking and life skills into three daughters and a son.


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05 Nov 2017, 11:00 pm

Just what do feministe who blame everything on white men want? To kill ourselves? I get that impression whenever I see their dialogue that I can't help but feel targeted.



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05 Nov 2017, 11:48 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
There is a semi-valid reason: White cis male oppression is the freshest memory and most present and personal example of misogyny available in the minds of most Western feminists (and frankly, most of the people experiencing misogyny from African, Indian, or Arab men don’t have the luxury of being outspoken feminists— they’re too busy trying not to die today). Things like shari’a and FGM and acid attacks and honor killings just don’t compute in their real, visceral, personal experience. It’s not a whole lot more real than the last episode of Walking Dead, and less relatable.

There’s also a reason that I don’t consider valid at all, and frankly it scares the living piss-water out of me and constitutes a fair bit of the reason I turned my back on liberalism for all I retain a lot of the fundamentally Socialist values I was raised with. Somewhere along the line, “more radical,” “more in-your-face” and et cetera became associated, and then equated, with “more progressive,” “more intelligent,” and “more better.” I don’t know WHEN that happen, but I know it was the case when I was in college (‘96-‘01, and then off and on until ‘06). It got worse and worse and worse until I got so disgusted with it I chose to tell them to shove their MA/MFA and just make a bunch of babies instead; it doesn’t seem to have improved any in the decade-and-change I’ve spent mopping floors and wiping noses and generally trying to inculcate some critical thinking and life skills into three daughters and a son.


Well during those times, millions of white men still died in wars and coal mines against their own will, while the women generally did cooking, cleaning and raising children. It was still s**t for atleast 80% of white men, so this white male privilege thing doesn't really make sense, and it makes even less sense to blame the current generation of young white men who are not responsible for, well, anything. All that these feminists are doing, is making young white males resent women, they're not making any positive change in our society.

In my opinion you're still representing a feminist view of the world of someone who haven't opened a history book. Feminists have this black and white perception of history, where all white men were throwing beach parties, while women were rotting in jail cells. It wasn't at all like that.