Page 3 of 5 [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

07 Nov 2017, 12:51 am

Different socialisation perhaps?



0regonGuy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2015
Posts: 658
Location: Oregon Coast

07 Nov 2017, 1:08 am

Fogman wrote:
For those of you who want to ban guns, just remember, all you will be doing is taking away the means to an end. --We should instead focus on the dysfunction that lies behind whatever compells people to kill others in the first place, but this is not as simplistic as just simply banning guns and leaving the dysfunction to continue, now isn't it?


Taking guns away from the dysfunctional people is the best short term solution. Millions of people could be dead, before you complete your research into what compels people to kill each other. I suspect that you know that the research would likely be inconclusive, so the question would never be answered, and guns would never be banned. Which is most likely your real agenda.


_________________
Autism Social Forum
A place for autistic people to discuss their interests.


0regonGuy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2015
Posts: 658
Location: Oregon Coast

07 Nov 2017, 1:18 am

Fogman wrote:
B19 wrote:
If congress made it mandatory for all gun owners to be listed on a national register with current details, number and kind of guns held, any convictions for violence of any kind, then that would be a start. To encourage compliance, it would be necessary to regulate the confiscation of all the guns of owners who refused to supply information. That would be a start, the first brick in the wall, not the solution. Gun sellers would also have to register information on sales (type of gun, seller's details) whether these transactions were private or through a dealer. The building of an effective data base would be a very important first step if there is an honest will to tackle the carnage perpetrated by these violent offenders and other lesser gun crime.



Considering the fact that many guns used in crimes are stolen this is ineffective. The concept behind the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution is that we have the right to bear arms not only to prvide food for the table, but as a means of defence against not only just criminals, but against enemies who are both of foreign origin, (IE invaders from foreign nations) as well as people within the country who would eradicate our freedoms.

What you are suggesting smacks of the first steps towards a totalitarian state. Maybe this would work in NZ, but it wouldn't work here in the US.


Actually you are right on the third part. The concept of the Second Amendment is that a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free country. If it had anything to do with food, or self defense against criminals, they would have said that. Criminals or food is not mentioned at all.


_________________
Autism Social Forum
A place for autistic people to discuss their interests.


0regonGuy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2015
Posts: 658
Location: Oregon Coast

07 Nov 2017, 1:26 am

B19 wrote:
For those who see these mass killings as solely a mental health issue, a question: in terms of your explanation, does this mean that men are more mentally ill than women? Where do you place gender in your mental illness theory of causation?


I think this kind of answers that.

Quote:
Study Finds Sex Differences in Mental Illness

WASHINGTON—When it comes to mental illness, the sexes are different: Women are more likely to be diagnosed with anxiety or depression, while men tend toward substance abuse or antisocial disorders, according to a new study published by the American Psychological Association.
Published online in APA’s Journal of Abnormal Psychology®, the study looked at the prevalence by gender of different types of common mental illnesses. The researchers also found that women with anxiety disorders are more likely to internalize emotions, which typically results in withdrawal, loneliness and depression. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to externalize emotions, which leads to aggressive, impulsive, coercive and noncompliant behavior, according to the study. The researchers demonstrated that it was differences in these liabilities to internalize and to externalize that accounted for gender differences in prevalence rates of many mental disorders.


Study Finds Sex Differences in Mental Illness


_________________
Autism Social Forum
A place for autistic people to discuss their interests.


B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

07 Nov 2017, 1:40 am

I puzzle to understand why the 18th century second amendment is necessary for federal or state protection in the 21st, in terms of protection from foreign threats or invasion to the USA or any of its states, given that the USA has military powers and personnel on an industrial scale, and laymen no longer have to defend their rights and territories from the English or anyone else by the use of pitchforks and rifles. I can see the relevance in the 18th century, when the pioneer culture wished to throw off oppression and other threats and establish independence. But the pioneer age is long gone, and the gun culture of the day now seems to function more like a cult, with an easily identified set of beliefs, articulated by the NRA and its followers, than a necessary form of state or federal protection. I also wonder if the opposing view is ever able to be articulated in the USA without being shouted down as heretical.

My puzzlement stems no doubt from the fact that I did not grow up in a gun culture. Nor do I live in one, and what seems normal to the gun lobby in the USA, from the context of my experience, seems bizarre from this perspective, though I have no doubt about which country is safer to live in, and no-one carries guns for their own protection here as they go about their daily life (apart from the police and they are not routinely armed, but can call on an armed offender's squad of expert police marksmen and women if there is extreme risk of danger from an armed offender at large). I worry about a lot of things here - the standard of driving often seems life-endangering, especially the idiots under the influence of either booze or talking into hand held phones, though I have never feared the spectre of a random shooter with military style weapons using me to discharge his lethal rage.

The only victims of gun deaths here tend to be hunters shot by other hunters, the victims misidentified as deer. These are tragedies, and the shooters are tried in the criminal courts on manslaughter charges, and usually convicted.

New Zealand schoolchildren are taught in class what to do in the event of an earthquake, from an early age. School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

07 Nov 2017, 3:53 am

B19 wrote:
School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..

I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,242
Location: Long Island, New York

07 Nov 2017, 3:59 am

0regonGuy wrote:
Aspzan wrote:
I asked a question but I'm not looking to argue just asking whether the guns used are the major issue?

They continue to believe it, even while their kids are having active shooter drills at school, and they are afraid to go to an outdoor concert because some crazy maniac might stick his head out of a hotel window and spray the crowd with machine gun fire.


Despite an uptick last year crime is significantly down the last few decades. So the problem is fear because the amount of people killed in single acts is going up plus social media. People are just not logical about risks. Where you are in Oregon you are much more likely to be hurt or killed by the “big one” earthquake then by a mass killer. With the security state, checkpoints, barriers etc you would think we are in Syria. Americans do seem to have a need to have a percieved existential threat a that has usually been a problem. If I was a jahidist I would not bother with America anymore because we are doing their job for them.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

07 Nov 2017, 4:09 am

"ASPartOfMe"

Quote:
If I was a jahidist I would not bother with America anymore because we are doing their job for them.


That statement speaks volumes. Gosh what a tragic situation it all is.



jonny23
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 515
Location: Sol System/Third Rock/USA

07 Nov 2017, 7:51 am

cyberdad wrote:
I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...


According the the FBI there where 665 justifiable homicides in 2010. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 387 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 278 people during the commission of a crime. That's just the number killed. There where many many more wounded or scared away.

Even mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens:
1997 Pearl High School
1998 Parker Middle School
2002 Appalachian School of Law
2007 New Life Church
2010 New York Mills AT&T Store
2010 Sullivan Central High School
2012 Freewill Baptist Church
2012 Clackamas Town Center Mall
2013 Luzerne County Bar
2014 Mystic Strip Club
2014 Austin, Texas Construction Site
2014 Cache Valley Hospital
2014 Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital
2015 Logan Square



jonny23
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 515
Location: Sol System/Third Rock/USA

07 Nov 2017, 8:36 am

B19 wrote:
I knew that the USA had a terrorist watch list though only learned today (PBS) that some people on it can buy guns quite legally:


Q: Why can people on the terrorist watch list buy guns?

A: That’s the law. Being on a terrorist watch list is not “in and of itself a disqualifying factor” for people purchasing firearms and explosives, according to a 2013 report by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service. Apparently they can buy assault rifles and other weapons capable of causing carnage.


Astonishing.


In 2013 468,749 watch-list nominations were submitted to the National Counterterrorism Center. Only 1 percent of the recommendations where rejected. Evidence or concrete facts that you are connected with terrorism are not required only “reasonable suspicion”.

Taking away peoples rights without due process is a slippery slope.



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,454
Location: Aux Arcs

07 Nov 2017, 11:56 am

cyberdad wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
It's a mental health issue,we need more access to services and we desperately need to get rid of the stigma of mental illness.

The guy knew this was the same church his mother in law attended. He had some vendetta and clearly took it to another level.

The NRA will argue this man didn't have a gun license for this weapon - but the fact the market is awash with guns simply makes it easier for him to i) acquire and then ii) conceal his gun ownership.

Improved Gun tech means there are now weapons available that allow one lone nutcase to walk into crowd and take out 50-100 people in a matter of minutes.

I can see what B19 is saying - with access to guns America is at war with itself

He could have also loaded up with explosives and drove into the church.If someone goes all cloud cuckoo land and wants to kill,they will find a way to do it.
The real challenge is catching them before they do this.That is why we need better mental health care in this country.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,454
Location: Aux Arcs

07 Nov 2017, 12:07 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
It's a mental health issue,we need more access to services and we desperately need to get rid of the stigma of mental illness.
Calling people with mental health problems "losers"does not help,that's part of the reason people don't seek help.You don't call a person with diabetes a loser because they have a bad pancreas.
There is also a disturbing shortage of psychiatrists,some areas underserved,some with too heavy a case load to adequately serve their clients.
http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/d ... .2017.4b24

We just saw the cops say Paddock was a gambling loser , that triggered his pride/narcissism anger, and that's the reason why he killed people.

It's a repeated pattern.

Person X is failing at something (likely loner, outcast).
Person X gets angry.
Person X develops mental illness.
Person X kills people.

You don't develop a mental illness that way,mostly its genetics.You are born with it.
People can get depression from life situations,but they are more likely to kill themselves than others.
Many highly successful creative people have a mental illness,they are not "losers."
https://healthypsych.com/21-highly-succ ... hallenges/
One of the leading experts in the feild of bipolar studies is Dr.Kay Redfield Jamison,who is also bipolar.
And the statistics show,if you research it,that the mentally ill are more often the victims of violent crime,not the offenders.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,454
Location: Aux Arcs

07 Nov 2017, 12:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:
B19 wrote:
School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..

I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...

When I was in school we never worried about active shooters,but there was just as many guns out there.No drills for shooters then.
We had tornado drills,so yeah we knew about Mother Nature and her wrath.We get tornados every year.
As for people stopping home invasions with a gun,happens regularly on the local news.We have a tweaker problem.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... ading-home
They will crawl thru a doggie door to gain access.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,242
Location: Long Island, New York

07 Nov 2017, 3:18 pm

B19 wrote:
I puzzle to understand why the 18th century second amendment is necessary for federal or state protection in the 21st, in terms of protection from foreign threats or invasion to the USA or any of its states, given that the USA has military powers and personnel on an industrial scale, and laymen no longer have to defend their rights and territories from the English or anyone else by the use of pitchforks and rifles. I can see the relevance in the 18th century, when the pioneer culture wished to throw off oppression and other threats and establish independence. But the pioneer age is long gone, and the gun culture of the day now seems to function more like a cult, with an easily identified set of beliefs, articulated by the NRA and its followers, than a necessary form of state or federal protection.
..


People do not want high powered weaponry so much to protect them from foreign invasion as much as their own government. While fear or crime is overrated in most places with the explosive growth and acceptance of the security state since 9/11 the fear of our own government is not totally unwarranted. 9/11 worked in some respects more than Bin Ladin (or whoever) could have ever imagined. Trump, and maybe anti vaxx does not happen if not for the current uber mistrust of authority and expertise.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

07 Nov 2017, 7:50 pm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 841693001/

Evidence of psychopathy is cited in the above article in USA Today, identifying this animal abuser, wife abuser, child abuser as a psychopath (a personality disorder that is not mental illness).

Definition of Personality Disorder:
personality disorder
noun Psychiatry:

a deeply ingrained and maladaptive pattern of behaviour of a specified kind, typically apparent by the time of adolescence, causing long-term difficulties in personal relationships or in functioning in society, characterized by a lack of guilt, a history of relationship problems (and other things).

This murderer was also a stalker, not uncommon with the sociopathic kind of personality disorders:

"Two former girlfriends told NBC News that Kelley's behaviour had become "disturbing - even violent" after they broke up with him.

"Years after dating me he would try to bribe me to hang out with him," Katy Landry told the channel in a Facebook message."He ended up assaulting me. He would stalk me by repeatedly calling me - even prank calling me saying really weird stuff."

Another former girlfriend, Brittany Adcock, 22, said she had dated Kelley for two months when she was 13 and he was 18. She told NBC he had continued to pester and harass her after she finished the relationship."

source: USA Today

He sounds like an all round "bad egg" - more bad than "mad" in my view anyway:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/ ... =artrecirc



0regonGuy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2015
Posts: 658
Location: Oregon Coast

07 Nov 2017, 9:16 pm

jonny23 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...


According the the FBI there where 665 justifiable homicides in 2010. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 387 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 278 people during the commission of a crime. That's just the number killed. There where many many more wounded or scared away.

Even mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens:
1997 Pearl High School
1998 Parker Middle School
2002 Appalachian School of Law
2007 New Life Church
2010 New York Mills AT&T Store
2010 Sullivan Central High School
2012 Freewill Baptist Church
2012 Clackamas Town Center Mall
2013 Luzerne County Bar
2014 Mystic Strip Club
2014 Austin, Texas Construction Site
2014 Cache Valley Hospital
2014 Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital
2015 Logan Square


BS detected. I'm not even going to go down the whole list. So I will just deal with the first case on the list. That was a student who shot and killed his girlfriend and another student, and wounded seven other students. He was attempting to leave the campus when another student blocked his car and the principle then detained him at gun point until police arrived. He was apprehended by an armed citizen, but no shooting was stopped. Not a very smart move either. The principle endangered student more with his actions. It would have been safer to let the kid leave, and have the police deal with him away from the campus. But don't let that stop you from continuing to grasp at straws, to try and justify failed policies.


_________________
Autism Social Forum
A place for autistic people to discuss their interests.