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L.Williamson
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13 Nov 2017, 3:55 pm

Could someone please try to help me understand exactly what's going on at this moment in time regarding Catalonia. Are they an independent state or still a part of Spain?



fluffysaurus
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13 Nov 2017, 4:10 pm

It's still part of Spain because the vote they had was not official. Although the majority of the people who voted voted for independence less than half of those eligible to vote voted at all because it wasn't an official vote. I think what the Catalans are trying to get is a proper referendum like Scotland and Quebec.
There is some suggestion that the Spanish government is being a bit heavy handed in it's responses but it's bound to be a complicated situation with a lot of history. Lets just hope it gets sorted out without too much blood shed.



DinoMongoosePenguin
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13 Nov 2017, 8:29 pm

If Catalonia wants out of the EU and is sick of Spain's heavy hand, I back their independence movement. If they want to go even further Left than Spain (like Scotland does with wanting to be more liberal than England), then I oppose it.



The_Walrus
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14 Nov 2017, 9:12 am

Catalonia is one of the most prosperous areas of Spain (it has Barcelona, a border with France, and lots of Mediterranean coastline). Many Catalonians resent that their tax money is used to prop up areas of Spain which still have developing economies. There's also some historical resentment going back to the time of Franco.

When Franco fell, Catalonia agreed to the new Spanish constitution which does not allow for regions to unilaterally declare independence (and possibly not for independence at all). So the Catalan government held an illegal referendum. The federal Spanish government did not like this and clamped down hard, which earned the Catalonians international sympathy.

While I support self-determination on principle, I think the motivations behind Catalonian independence are bad and they should choose not to do it. However, their selfishness is mitigated somewhat as they are very strongly pro-European, and would be net providers in the EU budget with Spain's poorer regions remaining net beneficiaries.



naturalplastic
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14 Nov 2017, 9:30 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Catalonia is one of the most prosperous areas of Spain (it has Barcelona, a border with France, and lots of Mediterranean coastline). Many Catalonians resent that their tax money is used to prop up areas of Spain which still have developing economies. There's also some historical resentment going back to the time of Franco.

When Franco fell, Catalonia agreed to the new Spanish constitution which does not allow for regions to unilaterally declare independence (and possibly not for independence at all). So the Catalan government held an illegal referendum. The federal Spanish government did not like this and clamped down hard, which earned the Catalonians international sympathy.

While I support self-determination on principle, I think the motivations behind Catalonian independence are bad and they should choose not to do it. However, their selfishness is mitigated somewhat as they are very strongly pro-European, and would be net providers in the EU budget with Spain's poorer regions remaining net beneficiaries.


I get the impression that all of these movements within European states are all pro EU.

Catalonia, and the Basques, yearn to bolt from Spain. The Breton in Brittany (a Celtic minority akin to the Welsh) want to be free of Paris, Scotland wants to bolt from English rule, but are anti Brexit , and are pro EU.

Seems like a contradiction (the small parts wanna break away from the middle sized units, but are a loyal to the big unit), but really isn't. It actually makes sense that the large unit and the small units would ally against the middle sized nationstates so that the small units get more autonomy within the EU ( the EU would be less oppressive than the nation state is).



The_Walrus
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14 Nov 2017, 4:00 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Seems like a contradiction (the small parts wanna break away from the middle sized units, but are a loyal to the big unit), but really isn't. It actually makes sense that the large unit and the small units would ally against the middle sized nationstates so that the small units get more autonomy within the EU ( the EU would be less oppressive than the nation state is).

Plus there are benefits to both localism and internationalism which apply in different policy areas.

It's good to have the same law over a large area as it makes it easier for businesses to operate in multiple territories, makes it easier for people to keep track of what they can and can't do, and so forth. But it's also good for people to have the power over local services, and for those services to reflect the needs of local communities.