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jonny23
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15 Nov 2017, 12:19 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Did say I was going out to trap millions of mice?There are other solutions for people to use in their homes.Of course if they are around food products you will need to remove or destroy them becuse of damage and disease.Rodents aren't that big a factor in rabies,plague yes.The reason I know about rodents and rabies is that I was bit by a mole once and my son by an alpine chipmunk in Colorado.He was trying to stuff it in his pocket,served him right.I asked my physcian.Rodents usually succumb to the virus before they have a chance of spreading it.



Rodents also chew up insulation and house wires. Ruin cloths, photo albums and other household items. It's not just your food they are after. And we're not just talking about homes. They destroy crops and ruin car wiring. What other solutions does a farmer have when they have hundreds or thousands of mice eating their product?

Misslizard wrote:
Some of the people involved are killing the dogs just to kill them,this has given them what they think is a valid reason to kill at will.


Evidence?



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15 Nov 2017, 12:23 pm

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I live in a rural area and we have to deal with feral animals,but nobody goes out and shoots all the dogs and cats running loose.We had one dig into our goat pen and latch onto our Saanen milk goat by the throat,of course we had to shoot it or let it kill the goat.But we didn't drive around later and shoot every dog on sight.Of course nuisance and sick animals have to be dealt with.
I posted a link how Greece deals with stray dogs.
Coyotes do all the things mentioned above,and I'm against killing them unless you catch one with your chicken in its mouth.
Keep your dogs vaccinations and flea treatments up to date and you won't have to worry about them catching diseases.


When a rancher is finding dead cattle or a child is attacked by a pack of dogs are they supposed to keep letting it happen until they figure out which dogs are responsible?



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15 Nov 2017, 12:42 pm

My only point really is the same as what EzraS said. Every country eliminates pests one way or another. Dogs and cats too. We all kill. Heck, we kill 1 million animals on the roads just for the privilege of driving our cars. That's a gruesome death that can take days.

The key to this story is that it's in peoples face and it's an animal that many of us love (including myself). But it's no different then what goes on everywhere by everyone. And if you don't think you're part of it then just look up habitat loss. Animals don't just disappear when their habitat does. They starve or freeze to death which takes days or weeks.



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15 Nov 2017, 5:23 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Did say I was going out to trap millions of mice?There are other solutions for people to use in their homes.Of course if they are around food products you will need to remove or destroy them becuse of damage and disease.Rodents aren't that big a factor in rabies,plague yes.The reason I know about rodents and rabies is that I was bit by a mole once and my son by an alpine chipmunk in Colorado.He was trying to stuff it in his pocket,served him right.I asked my physcian.Rodents usually succumb to the virus before they have a chance of spreading it.



Rodents also chew up insulation and house wires. Ruin cloths, photo albums and other household items. It's not just your food they are after. And we're not just talking about homes. They destroy crops and ruin car wiring. What other solutions does a farmer have when they have hundreds or thousands of mice eating their product?

Misslizard wrote:
Some of the people involved are killing the dogs just to kill them,this has given them what they think is a valid reason to kill at will.


Evidence?

No s**t,I've allready told you I live in a rural area.So you think poison is the answer?Then you kill every thing that feeds on a rodent,owls,neighbor's cat,etc.Look it up if you don't beleive me.I haven't had a mouse in my house in years.Sealing entrances helps and the better electronic pest control systems do work.Most people keep a cat in the barn.
Did you read the link earlier from a person on Jordan who witnessed it?
It's cattle country here,no people just don't go around shooting dogs at will.I have no problem with an animal being put down that's attacking livestock.People have hunting dogs here that will roam around ,mostly hounds don't bother livestock.Some people have tracking devices on prize dogs.Not a good idea to shoot a dog that's not bothering anything.Then you deal with a very irate armed owner.


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15 Nov 2017, 5:30 pm

EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I said nothing bad about Islam.Never once have.
If you read any of the links I posted you'd see that Jordanians are also upset about the whole deal.


I never said that you did. I said an Islamophobe could. A lot Jordanians are upset about it just like a lot of Americans are upset about over 2.7 million dogs and cats being put down. Some pet's have been killed in Jordan the same as some pets have been killed by animal control in America. But you seem to have a very ingrained code as to which animals it's okay to kill and under what circumstances it's okay to kill them.

I don't think most people who care about animals rights are Islamaphobic.That is usually a right wing republican,like our President.I would be just as upset about it if it was happening in a small town in Alaska and Christians were doing it.
No I do not have an "ingrained code" about which animal is ok to kill.It has to do the reason and how you put it down.I have put down sick wild animals before and helped butcher out game my family hunted.
I also understand that some islands have to irradicate all non native animals to protect endangered species,like the Galápagos Islands..Non native invasive species wreck havoc on ground nesting animals.Sad,it's not the animals fault but the humans that brought them there with no foresight.
It's the manner they are going about it.
You don't have to care.But I do.


It's not that I don't care. It's just that I tend to view things dispassionately. I'm not really capable of getting upset over things that I have absolutely no control over and that don't affect me directly.

So what would your immediate practical solution be to Jordan's infestation of wild potentially rabid dogs? Like if you were in charge and you had to take the swiftist most direct action requied to eliminate the infestation, what would it be?

How Greece manages theirs.Of course any sick or aggressive animal should be put down,that's reasonable.Just not shooting all the dogs,some are pets,some have done nothing wrong.


I'm afraid I'm not up on Greece's method of exterminating wild dogs. Did they have the same situation that's taking place in Jordan for it to apply?

They don't exterminate them,that's the point.Of course feral animals can attack a human.So can a bear.You don't see them killing all the bears becuse one person in a sleeping bag becomes the soft taco of the bear world.You kill the nuisance animals.Greece did have some tourist attacked by dogs,but they aren't slaughtering them.
We had a rabies epidemic here and even a bull got it,people didn't go on a cow shooting rampage.
Can you even image a rabid frickin bull?!?
A neighbor had his mother bit by a rabid fox,it just ran out of the woods and plugged her.People didn't go out and shoot foxes.If it's sick shoot it,otherwise let it be.


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15 Nov 2017, 5:52 pm

I never said poison anything. As you pointed out it's a terrible idea. There are 15 times the amount of dog attack fatalities then there are bear attack fatalities. Also, bears are native. Stray cats and dogs kill millions of native wildlife. They are an invasive species.

I have tried all the sonic mouse deterrents and they are all snake oil. Besides, my point isn't if there are alternatives. My point is that kill traps are the standard yet I doubt anyone here has been down to the hardware store shouting their moral objections.



Last edited by jonny23 on 15 Nov 2017, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Nov 2017, 6:10 pm

Also. Sharp shooters are hired in the us to kill wildlife all the time in cities and airports and other places hunting isn't allowed but there are to many deer or raccoons etc.

Atlanta is paying $70,000 to shoot wildlife at the airport. Ann arbor kills 100 deer a winter with sharp shooters. And 2,800 where planned on being shot at civil war battlefields for 1.8 million.



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15 Nov 2017, 6:23 pm

jonny23 wrote:
I never said poison anything. As you pointed out it's a terrible idea. There are 15 times the amount of dog attack fatalities then there are bear attack fatalities.

I have tried all the sonic mouse deterrents and they are all snake oil. Besides, my point isn't if there are alternatives. My point is that kill traps are the standard yet I doubt anyone here has been down to the hardware store shouting their moral objections.

A relative of mine found one that works.I doubted it,but it did clear the mice out.They were so bad he found turds in his frying pans.I prefer snakes,I won't kill any of then and they help keep an enviroment rodent free.Except in winter.Then I place mothballs in the out buildings.It work,the smell is ungodly but worth it.Pop the hood up on the rider mower and the mice don't have a dark place to nest.Works for me.
I never said I was against all killing,sometimes it has to be done.I use mosquito dunks,according to my religious beliefs( not trying to convert anyone) I'm killing thousands of beings.I still do it,becuse it is a health issue, West Nile virus.
I have no problem with sick or aggressive animals being put down.No one would adopt them anyway.
The hardware store here has options.Some kill mice,some use live traps.There has been some outcry against the glue traps.Which are inhumane and catch birds and lizards.
Anyway some of the dogs are being poisoned.


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15 Nov 2017, 6:30 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Also. Sharp shooters are hired in the us to kill wildlife all the time in cities and airports and other places hunting isn't allowed but there are to many deer or raccoons etc.

Atlanta is paying $70,000 to shoot wildlife at the airport. Ann arbor kills 100 deer a winter with sharp shooters. And 2,800 where planned on being shot at civil war battlefields for 1.8 million.

We have city hunts here,archery only.Not like there's much of a chance of killing the family pet deer and I think the meat is usually donated to food rooms.A few trappers here,no leg hold anymore.They use quick kill traps for beavers.They dam the creeks and flood roads at times.People used to eat them,the tail is suppose to be succulent.Then they sell the fur.It's not a whole out beaver eradication program,it's management.
You seem to think I'm against all killing.Sometimes it's a nessecary evil.
In my opnion,and you won't change it,Jordan is going about it wrong.


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15 Nov 2017, 6:38 pm

jonny23 wrote:
My only point really is the same as what EzraS said. Every country eliminates pests one way or another. Dogs and cats too. We all kill. Heck, we kill 1 million animals on the roads just for the privilege of driving our cars. That's a gruesome death that can take days.

The key to this story is that it's in peoples face and it's an animal that many of us love (including myself). But it's no different then what goes on everywhere by everyone. And if you don't think you're part of it then just look up habitat loss. Animals don't just disappear when their habitat does. They starve or freeze to death which takes days or weeks.

Yes,yes,but we have the intelligence to come up with better ways to deal with pests.We caused the problem in most cases.Its not just about dogs.
I'm very well aware of habitat loss.The leading cause of decline in most species.We could also work to fix that,if we cared enough to and didn't just think of the almighty dollar.I'm big on reptile/amphibian conservation.In some cases feral dogs and other animals have to be put down do so that sensitive species can make a comeback.


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15 Nov 2017, 7:41 pm

Misslizard wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Also. Sharp shooters are hired in the us to kill wildlife all the time in cities and airports and other places hunting isn't allowed but there are to many deer or raccoons etc.

Atlanta is paying $70,000 to shoot wildlife at the airport. Ann arbor kills 100 deer a winter with sharp shooters. And 2,800 where planned on being shot at civil war battlefields for 1.8 million.

We have city hunts here,archery only.Not like there's much of a chance of killing the family pet deer and I think the meat is usually donated to food rooms.A few trappers here,no leg hold anymore.They use quick kill traps for beavers.They dam the creeks and flood roads at times.People used to eat them,the tail is suppose to be succulent.Then they sell the fur.It's not a whole out beaver eradication program,it's management.
You seem to think I'm against all killing.Sometimes it's a nessecary evil.
In my opnion,and you won't change it,Jordan is going about it wrong.



Yes, we manage wildlife. If we eradicated it then we wouldn't have it. But what we're talking about here is an invasive species. Invasive species we routinely do eradicate.



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15 Nov 2017, 7:55 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Also. Sharp shooters are hired in the us to kill wildlife all the time in cities and airports and other places hunting isn't allowed but there are to many deer or raccoons etc.

Atlanta is paying $70,000 to shoot wildlife at the airport. Ann arbor kills 100 deer a winter with sharp shooters. And 2,800 where planned on being shot at civil war battlefields for 1.8 million.

We have city hunts here,archery only.Not like there's much of a chance of killing the family pet deer and I think the meat is usually donated to food rooms.A few trappers here,no leg hold anymore.They use quick kill traps for beavers.They dam the creeks and flood roads at times.People used to eat them,the tail is suppose to be succulent.Then they sell the fur.It's not a whole out beaver eradication program,it's management.
You seem to think I'm against all killing.Sometimes it's a nessecary evil.
In my opnion,and you won't change it,Jordan is going about it wrong.



Yes, we manage wildlife. If we eradicated it then we wouldn't have it. But what we're talking about here is an invasive species. Invasive species we routinely do eradicate.

I prefer animals to humans ,so I admit to a bias.I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.Some on this site feel the same way.I don't expect everyone here to have the same feelings.The petition was for those who want to help.No one is forcing anyone to sign.
People think animals are unpredictable,that's not true.Humans are,just watch the news.


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15 Nov 2017, 8:29 pm

I respect your feelings on the matter. I argue to much.



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16 Nov 2017, 12:06 am

Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I said nothing bad about Islam.Never once have.
If you read any of the links I posted you'd see that Jordanians are also upset about the whole deal.


I never said that you did. I said an Islamophobe could. A lot Jordanians are upset about it just like a lot of Americans are upset about over 2.7 million dogs and cats being put down. Some pet's have been killed in Jordan the same as some pets have been killed by animal control in America. But you seem to have a very ingrained code as to which animals it's okay to kill and under what circumstances it's okay to kill them.

I don't think most people who care about animals rights are Islamaphobic.That is usually a right wing republican,like our President.I would be just as upset about it if it was happening in a small town in Alaska and Christians were doing it.
No I do not have an "ingrained code" about which animal is ok to kill.It has to do the reason and how you put it down.I have put down sick wild animals before and helped butcher out game my family hunted.
I also understand that some islands have to irradicate all non native animals to protect endangered species,like the Galápagos Islands..Non native invasive species wreck havoc on ground nesting animals.Sad,it's not the animals fault but the humans that brought them there with no foresight.
It's the manner they are going about it.
You don't have to care.But I do.


It's not that I don't care. It's just that I tend to view things dispassionately. I'm not really capable of getting upset over things that I have absolutely no control over and that don't affect me directly.

So what would your immediate practical solution be to Jordan's infestation of wild potentially rabid dogs? Like if you were in charge and you had to take the swiftist most direct action requied to eliminate the infestation, what would it be?

How Greece manages theirs.Of course any sick or aggressive animal should be put down,that's reasonable.Just not shooting all the dogs,some are pets,some have done nothing wrong.


I'm afraid I'm not up on Greece's method of exterminating wild dogs. Did they have the same situation that's taking place in Jordan for it to apply?

They don't exterminate them,that's the point.


So then your answer is that you would do nothing. Because that's what Greece does, which is nothing at all. And they are overrun by vicious feral dogs.

Quote:
I have been living in Greece for the last 33 years and am well acquainted with the recent history of the dog situation in Athens and the rest of Greece.

As in most civilized countries, in Greece too, every municipality had a "dogpound" and a "dog catcher". And, as in most cities throughout the world,many domesticated dogs in Greece would one way or another gain their "freedom" from their owners. Either they would run away on their own, or they would be "let go" by irresponsible owners.

Whatever the case may have been, these stray dogs often would breed and have puppies and multiply accordingly. The dog catchers in Greece used to step in and round up as many strays as they could. The strays were held in the local municipal dog pounds for a period of no more than 90 days, and if no one claimed the dogs, they were typically then put to sleep.

This system kept the stray dog population down to a manageable level up until about 10 years ago. At about that time, a local animal rights activist group found out about a particular dog pound that kept their dogs in miserable and inhuman conditions. They visited the pound and filmed the scene. Then they took their evidence and presented it to the local District Attorney who in turn issued a warrant for the responsible mayor's arrest.That mayor was charged with the crime of "maltreatment of animals" which is a very serious offense in Greek law. He was convicted and sentenced to several months in prison along with a stiff monetary fine. As a result, almost every municipality in Greece dissolved their dog pounds and fired their dog catchers.

As you can understand, the paved the way for the stray dogs to multiply without restriction, and today they have become a serious problem. Many people, and especially children, have been attacked and mauled by gangs of wild dogs. But, no one takes responsibility. The local Humane Society has been making every effort it can to feed and take care of as many stray dogs as they can handle, but their numbers keep growing. They try to neuter as many of the dogs as they can, but they just can't seem to put even a small dent into the problem. Fortunately, rabies has been eliminated from Greece since the late 50's, but you never know what might happen with all these strays wandering throughout Greece.

http://www.greecetravel.com/mazarakis/w ... aydogs.htm

"Many people, and especially children, have been attacked and mauled by gangs of wild dogs. But, no one takes responsibility."

That's a pretty sh***y solution.



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16 Nov 2017, 10:46 am

jonny23 wrote:
I respect your feelings on the matter. I argue to much.

So do I. :D


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16 Nov 2017, 10:48 am

EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I said nothing bad about Islam.Never once have.
If you read any of the links I posted you'd see that Jordanians are also upset about the whole deal.


I never said that you did. I said an Islamophobe could. A lot Jordanians are upset about it just like a lot of Americans are upset about over 2.7 million dogs and cats being put down. Some pet's have been killed in Jordan the same as some pets have been killed by animal control in America. But you seem to have a very ingrained code as to which animals it's okay to kill and under what circumstances it's okay to kill them.

I don't think most people who care about animals rights are Islamaphobic.That is usually a right wing republican,like our President.I would be just as upset about it if it was happening in a small town in Alaska and Christians were doing it.
No I do not have an "ingrained code" about which animal is ok to kill.It has to do the reason and how you put it down.I have put down sick wild animals before and helped butcher out game my family hunted.
I also understand that some islands have to irradicate all non native animals to protect endangered species,like the Galápagos Islands..Non native invasive species wreck havoc on ground nesting animals.Sad,it's not the animals fault but the humans that brought them there with no foresight.
It's the manner they are going about it.
You don't have to care.But I do.


It's not that I don't care. It's just that I tend to view things dispassionately. I'm not really capable of getting upset over things that I have absolutely no control over and that don't affect me directly.

So what would your immediate practical solution be to Jordan's infestation of wild potentially rabid dogs? Like if you were in charge and you had to take the swiftist most direct action requied to eliminate the infestation, what would it be?

How Greece manages theirs.Of course any sick or aggressive animal should be put down,that's reasonable.Just not shooting all the dogs,some are pets,some have done nothing wrong.


I'm afraid I'm not up on Greece's method of exterminating wild dogs. Did they have the same situation that's taking place in Jordan for it to apply?

They don't exterminate them,that's the point.


So then your answer is that you would do nothing. Because that's what Greece does, which is nothing at all. And they are overrun by vicious feral dogs.

Quote:
I have been living in Greece for the last 33 years and am well acquainted with the recent history of the dog situation in Athens and the rest of Greece.

As in most civilized countries, in Greece too, every municipality had a "dogpound" and a "dog catcher". And, as in most cities throughout the world,many domesticated dogs in Greece would one way or another gain their "freedom" from their owners. Either they would run away on their own, or they would be "let go" by irresponsible owners.

Whatever the case may have been, these stray dogs often would breed and have puppies and multiply accordingly. The dog catchers in Greece used to step in and round up as many strays as they could. The strays were held in the local municipal dog pounds for a period of no more than 90 days, and if no one claimed the dogs, they were typically then put to sleep.

This system kept the stray dog population down to a manageable level up until about 10 years ago. At about that time, a local animal rights activist group found out about a particular dog pound that kept their dogs in miserable and inhuman conditions. They visited the pound and filmed the scene. Then they took their evidence and presented it to the local District Attorney who in turn issued a warrant for the responsible mayor's arrest.That mayor was charged with the crime of "maltreatment of animals" which is a very serious offense in Greek law. He was convicted and sentenced to several months in prison along with a stiff monetary fine. As a result, almost every municipality in Greece dissolved their dog pounds and fired their dog catchers.

As you can understand, the paved the way for the stray dogs to multiply without restriction, and today they have become a serious problem. Many people, and especially children, have been attacked and mauled by gangs of wild dogs. But, no one takes responsibility. The local Humane Society has been making every effort it can to feed and take care of as many stray dogs as they can handle, but their numbers keep growing. They try to neuter as many of the dogs as they can, but they just can't seem to put even a small dent into the problem. Fortunately, rabies has been eliminated from Greece since the late 50's, but you never know what might happen with all these strays wandering throughout Greece.

http://www.greecetravel.com/mazarakis/w ... aydogs.htm

"Many people, and especially children, have been attacked and mauled by gangs of wild dogs. But, no one takes responsibility."

That's a pretty sh***y solution.

I should have been specific and said Athens.Evennthe tourists enjoy the animals.This plan seems to be working well.
https://www.cityofathens.gr/en/stray-animals-0
http://www.athensinfoguide.com/gencats.htm


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