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Lost_dragon
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18 Nov 2017, 9:26 am

SplendidSnail wrote:
There's two kinds of empathy: Affective Empathy and Cognitive Empathy.

Affective empathy is the ability to perceive the emotional state of someone else. Often, it also results in sharing that emotional state. Those on the spectrum are usually just as good at this as neurotypicals. We are very capable of recognising that people are sad and feeling sorry for them.

Cognitive empathyis the ability to see things from someone else's perspective. It has very little to do with emotions, but is often critical to knowing how to respond to what we learn from Affective empathy. Seeing things from a sad person's perspective is often critical to knowing what will make them feel better.

An example of a test for Cognitive empathy that has nothing to do with Affective empathy is the Sally Anne test, which can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4

The Sally Anne test is intended for five year olds, and personally I find it very easy to pass. Maybe I'm just substituting straight logic for Cognitive empathy, and maybe five year olds can't use the logic so it works as a Cognitive empathy test for them.


Yeah, I think I've heard about that test before. I'm not sure what I would've said when I was five, but of course I find the test easy now. Probably would've asked why Sally was so bothered about her marble, and why Ann was known for being naughty, and if she was known for being naughty by the other character.

I know people have already pointed this out, but the way the woman asked the question was flawed. She said that Ann was naughty, and if I took that test at Primary school I'd probably ask if Sally knows of Ann's reputation of being naughty, and if she did then why leave her marble unattended with her? Why did she leave the room? Also, what if Sally planned for this? What if Sally knew that Ann would probably move the item, and since it's the only other container in the room- she might check there? Maybe Sally planned this, to prove that Ann was naughty. Perhaps she'd hidden cameras in the room to catch the moment as proof to show someone else, and/ or to blackmail Ann for something.

But of course, now I'd just say that Sally would check in her basket, because it's clear that's the desired response. Maybe I'd just say they were dolls, and therefore don't know anything, nor can they move marbles by themselves, if I felt like annoying the person giving me the test. :D

I don't think I've ever had a problem understanding different people's perspectives, however I do have my blind spots. Personally, I'm not that great at reading tone or facial expressions, but I can understand why someone is feeling the way they are, because I can understand their perspective, as well as sometimes being able to feel their emotion.

If I can't tell what someone's facial expression is saying, then I usually guess that they are confused. This can annoy people, and I've been called a psychopath before for getting it wrong. I'm not a psychopath though, I actually feel a lot of empathy for others. Despite not always picking up on sarcasm, there are times where I use it myself and sometimes I do pick up on it.

There was a time where I studied body language in my free time, so I've actually got pretty good at understanding it now. However, there is such a thing as over-analysing it, sometimes people do slight actions that are normally aggressive, simply unintentionally, so the body language has to make some sort of sense in the situation, otherwise it's probably unintentional.

However, I don't have a monotone voice, it's actually fairly expressive, except for enthusiasm- I don't tend to sound enthusiastic even when I am. Sometimes I pick up on body language without thinking about it, usually I'll feel an emotion, and be unsure as to why I'm feeling that way, and then I'll realise someone in the room feels that way and I'm just picking up on that.


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SplendidSnail
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18 Nov 2017, 10:22 am

Lost_dragon wrote:
SplendidSnail wrote:
An example of a test for Cognitive empathy that has nothing to do with Affective empathy is the Sally Anne test, which can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4

I know people have already pointed this out, but the way the woman asked the question was flawed. She said that Ann was naughty, and if I took that test at Primary school I'd probably ask if Sally knows of Ann's reputation of being naughty, and if she did then why leave her marble unattended with her? Why did she leave the room? Also, what if Sally planned for this? What if Sally knew that Ann would probably move the item, and since it's the only other container in the room- she might check there? Maybe Sally planned this, to prove that Ann was naughty. Perhaps she'd hidden cameras in the room to catch the moment as proof to show someone else, and/ or to blackmail Ann for something.

I literally did laugh out loud when I read this. Thanks for the good laugh.
:lol:


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Lost_dragon
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18 Nov 2017, 10:32 am

SplendidSnail wrote:
Lost_dragon wrote:
SplendidSnail wrote:
An example of a test for Cognitive empathy that has nothing to do with Affective empathy is the Sally Anne test, which can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4

I know people have already pointed this out, but the way the woman asked the question was flawed. She said that Ann was naughty, and if I took that test at Primary school I'd probably ask if Sally knows of Ann's reputation of being naughty, and if she did then why leave her marble unattended with her? Why did she leave the room? Also, what if Sally planned for this? What if Sally knew that Ann would probably move the item, and since it's the only other container in the room- she might check there? Maybe Sally planned this, to prove that Ann was naughty. Perhaps she'd hidden cameras in the room to catch the moment as proof to show someone else, and/ or to blackmail Ann for something.

I literally did laugh out loud when I read this. Thanks for the good laugh.
:lol:


No problem, if there's one thing that I can do well- it's overthinking things. :wink:


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krazykikikat
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19 Nov 2017, 5:25 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I think your therapist is one of those people who is in denial about autistics having the ability to feel empathy.


It's funny you should say that. When I told my mom that my psych thought I might be an Aspie, the first thing she said was "But you have empathy!"

I do get very anxious when people around me are angry. I don't think picking up on other's emotions is too unusual.
The post above about the two types of empathy says it all I think.



johnnyh
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21 Nov 2017, 12:58 am

Guys! Personal distress is not empathy, it is an egocentric reaction. The weird painful feeling or cringy feeling is not empathy.



DataB4
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21 Nov 2017, 2:12 am

Lost_dragon wrote:
Sometimes I pick up on body language without thinking about it, usually I'll feel an emotion, and be unsure as to why I'm feeling that way, and then I'll realise someone in the room feels that way and I'm just picking up on that.


Seems like a form of empathy to me. Once you understand the source of the feeling, I'd say that your empathy for that person strengthened.

When I feel stressed because someone is stressed or angry, I wouldn't always call that empathy though. I think powerlessness is a better word, if I'm feeling stressed because I don't know how to handle the situation. If I wish I could ease their pain, but I'm stressed because I don't understand, I'd call that caring, compassion, or perhaps pity, depending.

I would use the word empathy when I deeply understand someone's situation or if I'm directly feeling what they're feeling in the same situation. Otherwise, I'd use different language to express caring or concern for the person, without expressing understanding or shared emotion.

It doesn't seem like that first therapist empathized with you either.



komamanga
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21 Nov 2017, 3:09 am

johnnyh wrote:
What you felt may have just been personal distress which is an egocentric reaction (not egotistical of course)...


This is what I was going to say. For me this is the case.



Amaltheia
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21 Nov 2017, 6:05 am

johnnyh wrote:
Guys! Personal distress is not empathy, it is an egocentric reaction. The weird painful feeling or cringy feeling is not empathy.

From the Psychology Today website (emphasis added):
Quote:
All About Empathy

Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective. You place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling. Empathy is known to increase prosocial (helping) behaviors. While American culture might be socializing people into becoming more individualistic rather than empathic, research has uncovered the existence of "mirror neurons," which react to emotions expressed by others and then reproduce them.

So, if someone else in your vicinity is feeling distressed and you feel distressed — that is, you're feeling what they're feeling — how is that not empathy? Certainly seems to fit the definition.

And this definition of empathy is very widespread.
Image

Empathy is contrasted to other feelings as specifically involving feeling what the other person is feeling. Not just being aware of what they are feeling, caring about what they're feeling, or wanting to help or comfort them because of what they are feeling, but actually feeling what they are feeling.

Mind you, this infographic is unusual in putting compassion at the top. Usually, compassion fits in between pity and sympathy, with empathy held up as the ultimate form of engagement.

Still, you may be right. If so, I have ask: what do you believe empathy would feel like?



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21 Nov 2017, 7:03 am

What all these empathy discussions demonstrate is that the term 'empathy' is incredibly badly defined. It seems to mix up several different processes that work toghether to cause prosocial behavior.

What you can learn from for example Simon Baron Cohen's work is that even the 'experts' work with a very badly defined idea of what empathy is.

It's difficult to understand how NTs experience empathy, obviously it is to some extent different from how we experience it, but I think it is incredibly damaging for autistic people to go around thinking that we are somehow less caring. We display the same range of emotional empathy levels that NTs experience.


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Amaltheia
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21 Nov 2017, 4:08 pm

underwater wrote:
What all these empathy discussions demonstrate is that the term 'empathy' is incredibly badly defined.

This.