what are some things you CANNOT do because of your ASD?

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^ Good luck, xatrix. It's grueling.

I was lucky enough to work for an organization that allowed us to have our own offices. With doors. That closed. And locked. And they allowed me to have a white noise generator in my office.

Beyond that, what kept me going was my special interests at first. Towards the end it was the promise of retirement - I just kept reminding myself that I'd be on a permanent sabbatical *with stipend* if I could hold on long enough, and all the rude NTs would be just a fading memory.

Looks like you work with a lot of neckbeards.

I can relate greatly to this. The interrupting I really don't get. As you say, it's often us talking in response to something they asked. I'm supposed to register their boredom when I talk "too much," but they never seem to recognize mine, too. I've had many compliment me on my patience, when in fact I'm sitting there thinking, "When does it stop talking?"

I've definitely received odd responses when pulling out a book at work (at lunch or on break time). You'd think I was displaying child pornography the way many NTs react to reading by choice.

If only! These were degreed professionals. As was I. Gah.

What I did notice - and this will possibly hit some folks' nerves, for which I am sorry - is that the loutishness was much much worse, increasing over time, in the States. I worked in four European countries and very briefly in Japan, and never experienced this. (Am grateful for that, because it gave me an anchor point: yes, people CAN be courteous, it's only a lost art if people decide to lose it.)

Hey.

Do you think it all ties back in to the "others are furniture" attitude? I know that when NTs ask me how I am, it's merely a greeting ritual and the last thing I should do is attempt to tell them*; but I thought that rule was suspended when they ask for specific information that they supposedly need and want.

Could it be a side effect of non-reading combined with TV binging? Conversations in TVland are really distorted - in some venues they're just rudeness duels; if that's the model people work from...? Maybe some comes down to whether one thinks in images, or two-word sentences, or paragraphs?

Oh dear. That just revived a painful memory.

In my first workplace I was hired specifically as a tech writer. I was supposed to convey complex information in a reader friendly, nonthreatening manner and I was good at it.

I was nearly driven insane by the fact that I'd spend an hour, maybe more, carefully drafting a short but detailed memo or email that conveyed information people needed, in nice digestible bites, with easy to follow reasoning, subheads, paragraphing. I'd send it out, and within five minutes my phone was ringing off the hook and people were packing my doorway like a Kwakiutl totem** - wanting me to tell them what I'd just sent, because they weren't willing to read. I'd shake my head and gently explain that aww gee, it had taken me an hour to organize the info, it was intended for reference, and I'd really appreciate it if they could first take a few minutes to read through it, then email me any specific questions. None of them ever had questions, and none of them ever stopped doing this.

And oh yeah. What you said re: Llama, you're so patient! while you're thinking, "when will this end" or a version thereof? Oh yeah. All the livelong day. Yikes.

Don't want to threadjack - but maybe "getting through to NTs in some cultures even when they want you to" counts as a thing I cannot do because of my ASD.

*per my comment to League_Girl, I've had numerous people outside the US ask me what's up with that - they don't get it either.

**except that Kwakiutl totems are extremely beautiful and sacred.

What I don't get is if I interrupt, people get upset about it and my mom yells at me but yet she interrupts me and so do everyone else. I am still trying to figure this one out and always thinking when should I interrupt, this person keeps going on and on and I have something to say and I am going to forget it if I don't say it now or else the topic has already moved on by the time I can. The reason why I prefer online chat. No interruptions and I can get all my thoughts out.

I've experienced the same thing you describe, though it involved coworkers at that stage in my life (and no yelling, thank God). So frustrating, and there's no obvious solution, because they get huffy when you point it out (although they expect you to accept their feedback on this if *you* interrupt *them*. Just as you say.)

You're right; taking it online is definitely one way to avoid that problem. Wish I had a solution. (Edit in: other than retirement, which is the one I found. It works for me but it's pretty drastic and took a long time.)

Good morning, and thanks for the thoughtful response

You're lucky to have lived and worked outside the US, I think. It must help a little when trying to put some of this rude behavior in perspective. I think the "others as furniture" idea does make sense. I've definitely felt with some individuals that they were asking me the question only to tell me what they think (though I know I too can start conversations to explore my view on a topic). Maybe I'm just surprised at how pervasive that is. I think I'm also frustrated because my somewhat slow speech and need to frequently look away are often taken as signs I'm done speaking, though if they listened to my words they'd know that's not true. So I'm furniture with weak conversation skills And, I must admit, my desperation to be heard (accidentally wrote "hurt"--talk about a Freudian slip) has helped me make some bad decisions.

I like your observation regarding TV binging. For my part, I've also probably been misled by TV and movies to an extent, having to use them as social models to a degree. Related to that, I'd say we also live in a decreasingly verbal culture. When I read Shakespeare scholarship, they talk about how the audience had to be good listeners, and they were trained by church to listen. Our culture is far less verbal and much more visual. For me, that's tough. I prefer writing to speaking, for the most part, and would rather be clear and thorough, which can be dull and too much for most people.

I think your work story also touches on a point relevant to our experience with the general population (maybe this phrase is better than NT--it's ominous and goofy, like a bad sci-fi film). We can all have trouble admitting we're wrong, and I think that's part of some of these socializing difficulties. You had put time into crafting your memo and trying to do the right thing as best you could, while others just wanted the shortcut. I find most people are convinced that they're great, and feel very threatened if this illusion is shattered or just nudged a bit. They have no interest in just trying to do good work and letting the quality of that work speak for itself. I think it was you, Esmerelda, who made a very wise observation in another thread: that NTs feel threatened by seeing most autistic people as a combination of disability and great ability/intelligence. That's another factor which might come into play, here.

My autism makes these quite challenging:
-Sensory issues (hyper-sensitive to certain loud noises or textures, but not common anymore)
-Executive/planning
-Anxiety/worry (the worst one on this list)
-Have trouble tuning in and listening verbally at one time
-Don't have a job or drive a car yet
-Still live at my parents house
-Always want to second-guess my abilities

I also have anxiety.

"Othering" can be insidious, especially if a culture emphasizes conformity but isn't overt. On top of that, don't many cultural expectations operate at a preverbal level? How on earth can you articulate a protest to something preverbal? (Especially if you belong to the Jimmy Stewart School of Public Speaking. )

Plus, this culture has a big "meta" taboo. One does not speak of underlying processes in polite company here. Now, where can anyone go with that? If you're receiving disparate treatment, of whatever kind, basic social law forbids you from responding to it in any way that would address it constructively. I'm not so sure that heard/hurt was a Freudian slip - seems more like a fact of life The lost art of listening, and reading. Yes. I think many of my communication difficulties resulted from that. When I think back, it's strange; in most of the overseas places where I worked, both listening and reading still happened. Everyday, everywhere. I've been back in the US for 20+ years, and it's become increasingly difficult even to finish a sentence, never mind conveying abstract concepts with one. And even though I would always put an executive summary at the front of anything I wrote - having "The One Minute Manager" forcefed to me in training retreats made the need for it clear - I couldn't even get people to read a five-line bulleted list. That's not just frustrating - it's frightening.Thanks for suggesting alternate terminology. I saw another thread here that pointed out the danger inherent in "othering" those who have "othered" us. Talk about the abyss looking back at one! Prompted me to wonder how much of my frustration comes from - this will be a knot, sorry - non-ASD diversity among those I don't realize are themselves neurodiverse, because their differences "pass" more easily than mine?

A lot to think about. Thanks for "listening", for want of a better term. Oh, and? That business where we all think we're fantastic (absolutely true)? You know about the Dunning-Kruger effect, right? The source of all anti-learning, everywhere, I think - which would make it a bigger deal than the General Theory of Relativity.

I can't seem to be able to treat the people I meet differently based on their perceived social status and/or class, as seems to be expected of everyone by NT people. That ability to notice where someone is on the status scale compared to myself and either defer to them or make them feel inferior is something I just don't have. I've noticed that with people who expect to be deferred to (usually because they have more money than me and most other people) my inability to do that is a BIG problem.

In the past I have gotten very hostile reactions from people for treating them as an equal to myself and as I treat everyone else, which I find baffling.

Yes x 100%.

I do treat people differently, but it's based on how I see them treating others and how they treat me - I seem to be stuck with that (and I don't mind). I'm not rude, I just won't invest time in them, or extend myself very much to benefit them (unless forced, as in workplaces). Everyone starts out as equals, though. You are right; it doesn't go over well with people who expect unearned deference.

You're definitely not alone in this one.

I am the same way in that how a person behaves dictates how much respect I have for them, but when I first meet people (and don't know much about how they treat others) I tend to approach them all the same. My parents raised me with pretty good manners so I am polite, but for some people that's not enough and when they don't get the deference they expect they treat me like I'm being horribly rude and insensitive. And somehow NTs navigate this effortlessly and know who to defer to and when and how, and it's considered normal and even desirable to treat people so unequally. Then they lie and claim to believe that everyone is equal while not acting like they believe that.

NT social rules will never make sense to me.

^^ I hope that what I'm going to write here will help in some way. I'm thinking my way through it, so hopefully this will make some sense.

One of the things that saddens and bewilders me is how much time human beings spend lying - mostly to themselves. To some extent we all, Aspie or no, deceive ourselves about some things (I can sleep late and still finish that term paper today). Sometimes we do it to protect ourselves until we're strong enough to face painful things (my husband would never cheat! and absolutely not with my best friend!).

A lot of it seems to me to be a way to find excuses to avoid facing something, or doing something.

What do I mean? Well, if you tell yourself your husband would never cheat, you don't have to think about the consequences of discovering otherwise. If you tell yourself that "all men are created equal" - using the old interpretation of "men" as "humankind" - then you don't have to do anything about all the people around you who definitely aren't being treated equally. If you tell yourself that promotions are based on merit, you don't have to face the fact that actually, you did a lot of groveling and brown-nosing (or worse) to get where you are. If you tell yourself that poor people are that way because they're lazy, you don't have to admit to the existence of food deserts or slumlords or hookworm or predatory payday loans or civil asset forfeiture, etc. And so on.

T.S. Eliot said "human kind / Cannot bear very much reality." He was right - but for some reason some of us are hard wired to try. I really do think it's hard wiring, too. We can't solve problems that we don't define, and we can't define them if we refuse to look directly at them. And from what I've seen and lived, Aspies are overall more "into" problemsolving, even if it comes at a cost - which it always seems to.

Isn't it ironic? We ASD folks can have so much trouble looking other people in the eye - but many of us try to stare Truth full in the face where we can find it, whatever the cost, however ugly it may be.

^^^Thank you for writing this. It does help just to know that someone else understands, and I can tell that you understand by what you've said here.

The T.S. Eliot quote in particular I agree with, it has certainly been my experience that most people (despite whatever they may claim) don't really want that much truth in their lives. I have always felt compelled to confront reality because it feels unavoidable to me, which is why other people make so little sense to me in their seeking to avoid it. The few times when I was younger and I tried to run from reality it always seemed to find a way to put itself in my face, to make itself undeniable. Does that not happen to NT people, or is it that they respond differently to it (like by digging in deeper to self-delusion)?

I understand that I'm wired differently, etc., but understanding autism and how I am different doesn't seem to help me understand how others avoid reality so effectively because it seems to me to be impossible to do, yet they do.

Does that make any sense?