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C2V
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17 Nov 2017, 11:26 pm

I posted this in the men's discussion too, but that seems to be a bit of a dead space at times and I'm curious how this affects women's perspectives. So - I seem to run across advice for men of the following ilk way too often ---> https://www.menprovement.com/
It's just ... ick. But I can't really identify why. What do you think of this sort of advice to men? For the sake of argument, if you met a man who followed and personified all this advice and those of its kind, would you really be more inclined to find him attractive?
To me, this advice has several flaws -
1. It seems to be convinced that all women, 100%, are attracted to "alpha" men. Thus, all this advice is geared specifically towards turning men into that type. It assumes that all women prefer the most masculine, dominant, aggressive, competitive men. Which even I know is not the case.
2. It seems to cling desperately to very outdated social and gender roles, many of which I know women dislike in men, and which are actually harmful to them and to men themselves (emotional expression is a good example).
3. It seems that everything is based on strength and hypermasculinity, where women are seen as nothing more than "prizes," just validation that you're an "alpha" type and nothing more (and often women are ONLY referenced by their looks - things like "stop sleeping with average-looking women, and attract hot girls instead!" Now I am NOT saying that attraction doesn't exist, or you can't be attracted to women physically - just that at the risk of reading like a bullshitter, at least for me, there are things about a person, male or female, that attract me that are not solely dependent on their looks. I've proven this beyond doubt. So a "hot girl" isn't going to be more attractive to me than an "average-looking woman" if I am not interested in her or attracted to who she is as a person)
4. It's ALWAYS heteronormative -
I could go on. You get the idea.
I also tend to see men who are desperate to be "alpha" and have to assert their dominance all over the place as insecure people who rely on the validation of others, and to whom competition in order to bolster their own fragile ego is more important than cooperation, or the happiness of others around them. Hardly the sort of man who is going to attract me at least, whether I'm in a masculine or feminine presentation.
Plus, anyone who hates himself enough to take on this sort of program - it's going to be an act. A mask of the sort of man he thinks he should be, the sort of man he wishes he was, and not an honest reflection of who he is and that he's comfortable with that - which may very well be more attractive. I'm not asserting that you can't improve yourself with different ideas, but re-making yourself into this image of a stereotypical He-Man because you're told that's what women want seems misguided.
So, what do women think about this kind of advice?


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traven
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18 Nov 2017, 1:50 am

shallow - supershallowdreaminfusion for men\ looks are glossy too

men are the new women, to frustrate and sell miracles to



Embla
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18 Nov 2017, 2:27 am

I think it's stupid, but I also seem to have different standards than other women I know.
1. I am definitely not attracted to alpha-people. I'm attracted by nice people, and I rarely see that together with a stereotypical "alpha"-personality. One of the reasons I like my boyfriend so much is because he never acts like he's tougher, smarter or cooler than he is.
Most of my NT friends falls for those kind of "alpha"-guys though.

2. I don't give much thought to gender roles, but I easily fall into the part of the housewife. I think that's because cooking and cleaning are ways that I can express that I care about him. My (female) NT friends, they are pretty hypocritical about this topic. They will complain about gender roles, and demand the house-chores are divided equally and stuff like that, while they also want a strong-guy who will "treat them like a lady", with buying presents, take them out to dinner, compliment their looks and things like that. At least those are the things I hear them complaining about.

3/4. I'm more into androgynous people. That might be because I'm bisexual, but still. Hyper-masculine isn't something that attracts me, neither in men or women.

I agree that the men who try to act "alpha" are really just acting mean. You could definitely be tough and have a high self esteem and all that without acting like a jerk, but since the stereotype/ideal is what it is, guys seem to have a hard time figuring out the balance in how to be tough and nice at the same time. And I see no need for trying to find a balance like that anyway. Trying to act like you're something that you're not seems like a pain in the butt. In a way I feel sorry for the guys who does that, but it's hard to feel sorry for someone who's trying to dominate everyone and everything around them (this goes for women too).

Again, I like my boyfriend because he doesn't act like he's anything. He's not the nicest, definitely not the toughest, nor the smartest or most good looking person around. He's just a regular human and I happen to enjoy his company.



underwater
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18 Nov 2017, 2:56 am

traven wrote:
shallow - supershallowdreaminfusion for men\ looks are glossy too

men are the new women, to frustrate and sell miracles to


I agree about how there is this whole industry devoted to making money out of insecure men.

Fact is, people are less likely to be in relationships today than in the past. There's an epidemic of lonely people. There are many theories about why, but I partly blame the instability of modern life, where people move and change jobs a lot, plus all the hours people devote to tv and social media. In North America, car culture is also a big thing.

I found a couple of old books from the sixties 'What girls want to know about boys' and 'What boys want to know about girls'. A bit outdated, but I picked up lots of etiquette from those books, and for an aspie, they were a gold mine of information. I guess part of this PUA thing is about teaching guys the most basic things about how to interact with fellow human beings, women in particular, and parts of it is about teaching them to scare or manipulate a woman into having sex with them - because it's about sex, not relationships. If you go into a relationship with all this 'Alpha male' BS in your head, it will be a miserable experience.

There are people who learn how to get into sexual relationships with other people, and simultaneously make themselves unable to have a deep relationship with another human being. What an achievement!

I'm perhaps not typical in any way, but for me the yes/no question was always 'Is he kind?'.

Also, this 'Alpha male' idea is a very American thing. Other cultures have other masculine ideals. I thought of this recently because I met a couple of genuinely confident men recently. What they had in common was that they were middle aged, and had gone through a lot of crap in their lives, and come out on the other side with some belief in their ability to handle stuff, and some professional success. That was not this brash, loud, fake confidence that you see so much of in American culture. Although it is a quiet confidence, it shines through anyway because the person is not fazed by anything, and is not afraid of admitting that they are not an expert on everything.

Confidence is attractive, but narcissism isn't, and all this 'alpha male' s**t is just about narcissism.


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MrsPeel
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18 Nov 2017, 5:16 am

Alpha types make me nervous.
If I could go back in time and start over, I'd want a guy who was quiet, thoughtful, and with whom I shared common values.



plainjain
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18 Nov 2017, 2:11 pm

In all fairness, I only read the titles of the articles.

However, it's worth it for men to know, anyone who repeatedly encourages men to use testosterone supplementation is not to be trusted. The only surefire thing that testosterone supplementation can possibly give you, is cancer:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16006887

The rest of the articles seem to also give unhealthy advice. You can find the same type of unhealthy advice pushed on females, and it takes time and effort to learn what articles are trustworthy, helpful, healthy, etc. Males, females, and everyone in between should always check the information they get against plenty of other sources, while trying to remember that everyone's mind and body respond differently to different foods/medicines/therapies/environments and whatnot.

Blanket acceptance of generalizations will get people in trouble, no matter their gender, age, health, etc.



Retta10Grams
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27 Nov 2017, 3:48 pm

Hey there! This may sound like a silly question and maybe it has been already asked, or this is a totally wrong thread, but how do you react when someone ignores you? It's actually not related to dating, but when someone who has expressed romantic interest in you, which you have rejected, and then later on that person starts ignoring you after you have set up a non-romantic meeting (equally initiated by both parties). To tell you the truth, I'm not interested in his motives or intentions, being that we are totally different and I'm not sure I even want to understand the other party involved (I know it sounds harsh), but what do you guys feel, how do you act, how do you spend your afternoon? Is obsessing over it an NT thing ("normal") and to what extent, according to your point of view? Thank you in advance!


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fluffysaurus
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13 Dec 2017, 10:09 am

traven wrote:
shallow - supershallowdreaminfusion for men\ looks are glossy too

men are the new women, to frustrate and sell miracles to


Yes, this. I kept thinking how like women's magazines all that was. It all just makes people feel sh*t about themselves. I don't even bother with the ones that are supposed to be all health and fitness any more, there still lurks that suggestion that if only you spent a bit more time on your faults your life would be miraculously perfect. The sad thing is when we feel inadequate, male or female, the worse thing we can do is follow this sort of self absorption.



fluffysaurus
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13 Dec 2017, 10:15 am

Retta10Grams wrote:
Hey there! This may sound like a silly question and maybe it has been already asked, or this is a totally wrong thread, but how do you react when someone ignores you? It's actually not related to dating, but when someone who has expressed romantic interest in you, which you have rejected, and then later on that person starts ignoring you after you have set up a non-romantic meeting (equally initiated by both parties). To tell you the truth, I'm not interested in his motives or intentions, being that we are totally different and I'm not sure I even want to understand the other party involved (I know it sounds harsh), but what do you guys feel, how do you act, how do you spend your afternoon? Is obsessing over it an NT thing ("normal") and to what extent, according to your point of view? Thank you in advance!


Obsessing over anything is normal and to any degree.
I think you should just be friendly to him, it isn't easy being rejected, it hurts so as long as he isn't actually hostile to you, I think that would be best.



Embla
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13 Dec 2017, 2:29 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
Retta10Grams wrote:
Hey there! This may sound like a silly question and maybe it has been already asked, or this is a totally wrong thread, but how do you react when someone ignores you? It's actually not related to dating, but when someone who has expressed romantic interest in you, which you have rejected, and then later on that person starts ignoring you after you have set up a non-romantic meeting (equally initiated by both parties). To tell you the truth, I'm not interested in his motives or intentions, being that we are totally different and I'm not sure I even want to understand the other party involved (I know it sounds harsh), but what do you guys feel, how do you act, how do you spend your afternoon? Is obsessing over it an NT thing ("normal") and to what extent, according to your point of view? Thank you in advance!


Obsessing over anything is normal and to any degree.
I think you should just be friendly to him, it isn't easy being rejected, it hurts so as long as he isn't actually hostile to you, I think that would be best.


What she said.

I once had a huge crush on someone, who rejected me but still wanted to hang out as friends. Even if I wanted to I couldn't because it hurt a lot. I also set up some meetings and canceled at the last minute ("cause I want to but I don't, but I want to, but I don't").
Now it's years later, I'm over it, and we are hanging out as very good friends.

If you want to keep him as a friend, maybe you just need to give him some time to get over you.



kdm1984
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14 Dec 2017, 11:41 pm

I don't view men through any of those lenses, actually.

I like guys who are reserved, calm, impassive, and self-contained. Secure INTP or ISTP types (I know the 16 type model isn't a perfect model, but those descriptions are at least more precise than a two-type model of loud 'alpha' or touchy-feely 'beta'). I don't go for most extroverts or feelers. Men who are very loud, or very emotional/illogical, make me uncomfortable.

My spouse is either INTP or unusually subdued ENTP.


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Amity
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15 Dec 2017, 4:53 am

This PUA/red pill formula has led to shallow gratification for a lot of men; but I see it as a mask for insecurity and cowardice that paralyses growth and much like a drug, it leads men down the avoidance route.
One thing I'm certain of is that masking is not sustainable, it always comes at a cost.



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23 Dec 2017, 2:04 am

C2V wrote:
I posted this in the men's discussion too, but that seems to be a bit of a dead space at times and I'm curious how this affects women's perspectives. So - I seem to run across advice for men of the following ilk way too often ---> https://www.menprovement.com/
It's just ... ick. But I can't really identify why. What do you think of this sort of advice to men? For the sake of argument, if you met a man who followed and personified all this advice and those of its kind, would you really be more inclined to find him attractive?
To me, this advice has several flaws -
1. It seems to be convinced that all women, 100%, are attracted to "alpha" men. Thus, all this advice is geared specifically towards turning men into that type. It assumes that all women prefer the most masculine, dominant, aggressive, competitive men. Which even I know is not the case.
2. It seems to cling desperately to very outdated social and gender roles, many of which I know women dislike in men, and which are actually harmful to them and to men themselves (emotional expression is a good example).
3. It seems that everything is based on strength and hypermasculinity, where women are seen as nothing more than "prizes," just validation that you're an "alpha" type and nothing more (and often women are ONLY referenced by their looks - things like "stop sleeping with average-looking women, and attract hot girls instead!" Now I am NOT saying that attraction doesn't exist, or you can't be attracted to women physically - just that at the risk of reading like a bullshitter, at least for me, there are things about a person, male or female, that attract me that are not solely dependent on their looks. I've proven this beyond doubt. So a "hot girl" isn't going to be more attractive to me than an "average-looking woman" if I am not interested in her or attracted to who she is as a person)
4. It's ALWAYS heteronormative -
I could go on. You get the idea.
I also tend to see men who are desperate to be "alpha" and have to assert their dominance all over the place as insecure people who rely on the validation of others, and to whom competition in order to bolster their own fragile ego is more important than cooperation, or the happiness of others around them. Hardly the sort of man who is going to attract me at least, whether I'm in a masculine or feminine presentation.
Plus, anyone who hates himself enough to take on this sort of program - it's going to be an act. A mask of the sort of man he thinks he should be, the sort of man he wishes he was, and not an honest reflection of who he is and that he's comfortable with that - which may very well be more attractive. I'm not asserting that you can't improve yourself with different ideas, but re-making yourself into this image of a stereotypical He-Man because you're told that's what women want seems misguided.
So, what do women think about this kind of advice?


Personally I think it's dumb, but I also think all of those women's magazines with equivalent female oriented "advice" are dumb. I suppose some people find it relevant to them but I would just rather not be a part of any of it. In fact I would prefer to have been a member of an asexual, genderless species.