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the_phoenix
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20 Nov 2017, 9:46 pm

Trogluddite wrote:
You can't possibly draw a simple boundary between ASD and NT, so who gets to decide who is in and who is out? ( :wink: sorry I couldn't resist another one.)


The popular people.



EzraS
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20 Nov 2017, 9:52 pm

nephets wrote:
HistoryGal wrote:
You're welcome to continue believing ASD people are superior....it's a cute fantasy.

There's no fantasy here and I said no such thing.The fact remains that many ASD 'sufferers' operate at a higher level than many NT's (note I said many, not all). The fact remains that humanity does not progress because of the 'average', but because of people who can think in unusual ways, which many NT's cannot (again I said many). How many great NT inventors are there? There may be some, but not many, because you need to think outside the box. Thinking in unusual ways has an evolutionary advantage, which is why we are still around and have not been bred out of the gene-pool. Nobody is claiming autistic supremacy, that would be absurd. It takes all sorts, does it not? I would wager that many (again, not most) on here have high IQ's. Can you think of a an NT version of wrong planet, if there was such a thing, being able to say that? I merely point out that we have strengths as well as weaknesses.


Maybe they need to invent some new category to put people like you in then to avoid undeserved stigma. I however have autism and I suffer from it greatly. That's what autism is. It's a disadvantage.

It's neurological disability. It doesn't mean someone who operates at a higher level. Because of the fact that autism is mental disability, there may be some who may excel in a in a particular area to compensate. That's how nature works i.e. blind people have superior hearing. But the overall package is a disabling disorder.

As far as gene-pool goes, how come other neurological disabilities like dyspraxia, cerebral palsy and epilepsy haven't been bread out?



EzraS
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20 Nov 2017, 10:10 pm

the_phoenix wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I hate to break it to some of you, but most likely you're much closer to being like an "NT" than being like those who are like me.


Yep, I'm probably much closer to being like an NT than I am to being at your level of AS, EzraS.
And in fact, in the past, I've prayed to be normal ... before I discovered WP,
when I just thought I had a weird life and didn't suspect autism was involved.

It would certainly seem better for me to be able to say that I'm a gifted, eccentric NT
which would mean I'd have way more social skills, money, marriage, children, a house, steady job, friends ...
(or a better chance to have those things anyways).
But it's more honest to say I'm a gifted, eccentric Aspie
which means I'm lower on the social scale and lacking many things an NT takes for granted.
(And then there are the sensory issues ...)

This whole comparison "I'm better than you are" thing stinks anyways
... "low functioning vs. high functioning" or "mild, moderate, severe"
when these labels are used as nasty ways to divide people.
Because each of us has a talent ...
we just tend not to recognize our own talents because they come so easy to us ...
or because we have a talent that society doesn't value or reward.
And each of us has an intrinsic worth
that deserves the best respect.


What bothers me are the number of people I have seen posting on here who try to put "NT's" on some lower evolutionary scale like they are cro-magnon. They list unfavorable human nature behavior as pertaining to "NT's" only, when I know from personal experience they lack, that these same behaviors apply to people with autism too.

I think "NT's" are really just all those people someone with ASD is around that they don't get along with and or dislike.



the_phoenix
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20 Nov 2017, 10:46 pm

EzraS wrote:
the_phoenix wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I hate to break it to some of you, but most likely you're much closer to being like an "NT" than being like those who are like me.


Yep, I'm probably much closer to being like an NT than I am to being at your level of AS, EzraS.
And in fact, in the past, I've prayed to be normal ... before I discovered WP,
when I just thought I had a weird life and didn't suspect autism was involved.

It would certainly seem better for me to be able to say that I'm a gifted, eccentric NT
which would mean I'd have way more social skills, money, marriage, children, a house, steady job, friends ...
(or a better chance to have those things anyways).
But it's more honest to say I'm a gifted, eccentric Aspie
which means I'm lower on the social scale and lacking many things an NT takes for granted.
(And then there are the sensory issues ...)

This whole comparison "I'm better than you are" thing stinks anyways
... "low functioning vs. high functioning" or "mild, moderate, severe"
when these labels are used as nasty ways to divide people.
Because each of us has a talent ...
we just tend not to recognize our own talents because they come so easy to us ...
or because we have a talent that society doesn't value or reward.
And each of us has an intrinsic worth
that deserves the best respect.


What bothers me are the number of people I have seen posting on here who try to put "NT's" on some lower evolutionary scale like they are cro-magnon. They list unfavorable human nature behavior as pertaining to "NT's" only, when I know from personal experience they lack, that these same behaviors apply to people with autism too.

I think "NT's" are really just all those people someone with ASD is around that they don't get along with and or dislike.


Labeling NTs as cro-magnon or something might indicate a feeling of bitterness towards them.
Maybe a "let's label them because they're labeling us" type of thing.

Anyways yeah, I agree with what you're getting at with your post.
And that said, there is also some real misunderstanding of autism by NTs out there as well, whether from ignorance, lack of caring, bullying, who knows.



MjrMajorMajor
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20 Nov 2017, 10:50 pm

[quote="EzraS"

Most of the stuff I see regarding NTs this, NTs that, applies to autistic people as well.

Most are never around other autistic people full time to realize that.

In the actual real life autistic community, the term NT isn't even used amongst us that I know of. It just seems to be an online t.[/quote]

Thank you for this. Autism is a piece but not the sum of who we are...



EzraS
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21 Nov 2017, 2:44 am

the_phoenix wrote:
EzraS wrote:
the_phoenix wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I hate to break it to some of you, but most likely you're much closer to being like an "NT" than being like those who are like me.


Yep, I'm probably much closer to being like an NT than I am to being at your level of AS, EzraS.
And in fact, in the past, I've prayed to be normal ... before I discovered WP,
when I just thought I had a weird life and didn't suspect autism was involved.

It would certainly seem better for me to be able to say that I'm a gifted, eccentric NT
which would mean I'd have way more social skills, money, marriage, children, a house, steady job, friends ...
(or a better chance to have those things anyways).
But it's more honest to say I'm a gifted, eccentric Aspie
which means I'm lower on the social scale and lacking many things an NT takes for granted.
(And then there are the sensory issues ...)

This whole comparison "I'm better than you are" thing stinks anyways
... "low functioning vs. high functioning" or "mild, moderate, severe"
when these labels are used as nasty ways to divide people.
Because each of us has a talent ...
we just tend not to recognize our own talents because they come so easy to us ...
or because we have a talent that society doesn't value or reward.
And each of us has an intrinsic worth
that deserves the best respect.


What bothers me are the number of people I have seen posting on here who try to put "NT's" on some lower evolutionary scale like they are cro-magnon. They list unfavorable human nature behavior as pertaining to "NT's" only, when I know from personal experience they lack, that these same behaviors apply to people with autism too.

I think "NT's" are really just all those people someone with ASD is around that they don't get along with and or dislike.


Labeling NTs as cro-magnon or something might indicate a feeling of bitterness towards them.
Maybe a "let's label them because they're labeling us" type of thing.

Anyways yeah, I agree with what you're getting at with your post.
And that said, there is also some real misunderstanding of autism by NTs out there as well, whether from ignorance, lack of caring, bullying, who knows.


The list of neurological disorders is very long. And I doubt anyone with autism knows anything about most of them.

Plus out of that long list of neurological disorders and not knowing what they all are or anything about them, are many people with a neurological disorder of some sort who get lumped with "NT's".

Bullying is not something that NT's do. It's something that people do. It's human nature.

My whole life I've been in private schools for autistic students. And I have witnessed plenty of bullies and jerks. I have been teased harassed bullied and assaulted by those with autism.

I'm not trying lecture you or whatever, just saying this in general.



Trogluddite
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21 Nov 2017, 12:00 pm

I think a lot of people make the same mistake that I did after my late diagnosis:
"Wow, there are loads of folks with the same condition as me, I get to be part of one big happy family at last!"

After spending a while somewhere like this, and seeing that actually, there is plenty of conflict even between people with almost identical diagnoses, it is very tempting to look for an "other", in order to preserve that idealised concept of having "finally found where you belong".

I certainly went through a period of disappointment when I started using various online forums and realised that I had many unrealistic expectations of what "joining the autistic community" would be like. I think these places are a good thing, and have benefited enormously from them, but I find the idea that they will lead to a cohesive "autism rights" movement big enough to be effective totally unrealistic.


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the_phoenix
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21 Nov 2017, 12:26 pm

MjrMajorMajor wrote:
Autism is a piece but not the sum of who we are...


Excellent way of putting it. :)



the_phoenix
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21 Nov 2017, 12:32 pm

EzraS wrote:
The list of neurological disorders is very long. And I doubt anyone with autism knows anything about most of them.

Plus out of that long list of neurological disorders and not knowing what they all are or anything about them, are many people with a neurological disorder of some sort who get lumped with "NT's".

Bullying is not something that NT's do. It's something that people do. It's human nature.

My whole life I've been in private schools for autistic students. And I have witnessed plenty of bullies and jerks. I have been teased harassed bullied and assaulted by those with autism.

I'm not trying lecture you or whatever, just saying this in general.


Most definitely, people with autism can be bullies just as much as anyone.