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TwoBlocked
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04 Jan 2018, 10:08 am

This is my first post. It's real nice you folks have this Forum. I am involved in a boy's outdoor club and we have a boy (I will call "Hal") that I am not sure how best to help. I bet you folks can give me some good advice.

Hal is diagnosed with high level Autism, which seems to mean many things... I really like the kid. He's a 5th grader in a small, one-traffic light town. His "Mom" is actually his aged great-grandmother. Father dead, mother has another family that he rarely sees. He won't have much of a support structure as a young adult, and so I see these years as being critical.

Our Club is fashioned on the Wilderness Camp model of Campbell Loughmiller where a handful of boys about the same age are challenged with group activities in order to develop a strong character together. We are Christian based. The boys make their own plans and work out their own problems as much as possible with the adults inspiring, challenging, and encouraging as needed. Hal really likes the Club and has been with us about a year. His Mom is very supportive and his therapist recognizes how the Club has helped him, too.

But of course there is a problem, otherwise I wouldn't be here on this Forum. Hal can be manipulative and passive-aggressive, just like any other kid, but more so. And like any other kid will sometimes do things that he thinks is fun but others find offensive, but more so. Unfortunately he lacks remorse when held accountable for his actions, and instead regrets the trouble it caused but seems to "blames the victim" rather than himself. Yet, what he does tells me that he is looking for interaction with others, just in the wrong way. So I am very hopeful. I guess a number of different things going on here.

Let me give an example. On a campout we were roasting hotdogs. Hal took his sizzling hotdog and touched it to the bare skin of each and every boy there when they weren't looking. Most blew it off and told him to cut it out. One boy took great offense and told me about it. Our very successful, standard way of dealing with this sort of thing is for the offending boy to apologize and the two of them to exchange the Club Handshake. But with Hal that doesn't work so well. Because the other boy was so offended, Hal became very defensive and made quite a ruckus. He only did it once to each boy, he's acting like I should be locked up in prison for killing someone, etc. The big problem I see is that Hal was not sorry for what he had done, so the Club Handshake meant nothing. He is wanting the "gravy" of having interactions, but not the "potatoes" of being accountable for his actions.

Much, but I don't think all, is immaturity for his age. Although he goes to public school, I think he is used to dealing mostly with adults, especially his doting Mom. He rides the "short bus" to school. It has been drilled into him that he is so very smart, and it seems he thinks that is enough for him to talk himself out of trouble, which it isn't, and must be very frustrating for him. Like any other kid, but more so, he will come up with manipulative excuses to do what he wants rather than what he ought. Things that are meant to be irritating to others, which (again) I see as a desire to interact, and so am very hopeful. Gosh, I want so much better for him! I am on very good terms with the Mom and may have a serious talk with her one day. He won't be spending his life protected on the "short bus"...

I want to keep this as a boys-helping-boys sort of thing rather than me, as an adult, stepping in and adding another layer of counseling, although I will keep this as an option. He doesn't have strong male guidance in his life. Maybe that is where I can best help after all. Suggestions? If you need to know more about this situation, please ask!



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04 Jan 2018, 12:09 pm

When you say he comes up with "manipulative" excuses do you mean self-serving or persuasive or do you mean actually manipulative? Kids with autism do not usually have a whole lot of aptitude with manipulation because they tend to not to see things from the neurotypical point of view. It isn't that some can't attempt manipulation, but it usually is pretty transparent and ineffective.

Autistic kids can also be very binary and can use a lot of hyperbole. If he views himself as only being capable of either right or wrong/bad or good etc. this can lead to defensiveness b/c he doesn't recognize that there is something in the middle. Obviously he is not going to want to think of himself as bad, so that is where the defensiveness comes in. In addition, when expressing himself he may use hyperbole for similar reasons.

I don't know what to suggest other than to try to encourage perspective taking but that is also difficult b/c if he wouldn't view being touched with a hot, hotdog as a big deal, then he will have trouble understanding why someone else has a huge problem with it. So in a case like that it is not going to work.

Attempts with socialization can also be difficult because the strategies are often counterproductive and it is difficult to explain to someone who thinks he is doing a great job of putting himself out there, that his method is wrong. Some kids understand it easier than others. I don't know what to suggest b/c we have not had a lot of success in this area.

Autism is a type of developmental delay and so while I continue to plant seeds, my son just is not ready yet. So when you say the boy in your group is immature, you probably hit it exactly right when it comes to social engagement.



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04 Jan 2018, 12:36 pm

The examples you gave seem quite unusual for an AS child. Or even very un-aspie, if you asked me for an opinion. But maybe I don't have the whole picture.
Being manipulative is rare among Aspies. I don't say it never occurs but manipulative behaviors are significantly rarer among Aspies than in the general population. Some behaviors may be mistaken for manipulativeness but I can't see it in the example you gave. So unless you have seriously misinterpreted something, there is little to relate here.
The only typically aspie thing there is not getting the meaning of the handshake.

After some considering, given that he is indeed in the spectrum, I could speculate that he is trying to mimic other boys. He sees they do malicious practical jokes to each other and then play innocent, then mimics it without really understanding the unspoken rules and social meanings behind all this.
That's just my speculation, the way I could fit the described behavior with the ASD characteristics. May be totally wrong.


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04 Jan 2018, 12:58 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
When you say he comes up with "manipulative" excuses do you mean self-serving or persuasive or do you mean actually manipulative? Kids with autism do not usually have a whole lot of aptitude with manipulation because they tend to not to see things from the neurotypical point of view. It isn't that some can't attempt manipulation, but it usually is pretty transparent and ineffective.

Autistic kids can also be very binary and can use a lot of hyperbole. If he views himself as only being capable of either right or wrong/bad or good etc. this can lead to defensiveness b/c he doesn't recognize that there is something in the middle. Obviously he is not going to want to think of himself as bad, so that is where the defensiveness comes in. In addition, when expressing himself he may use hyperbole for similar reasons.

I don't know what to suggest other than to try to encourage perspective taking but that is also difficult b/c if he wouldn't view being touched with a hot, hotdog as a big deal, then he will have trouble understanding why someone else has a huge problem with it. So in a case like that it is not going to work.

Attempts with socialization can also be difficult because the strategies are often counterproductive and it is difficult to explain to someone who thinks he is doing a great job of putting himself out there, that his method is wrong. Some kids understand it easier than others. I don't know what to suggest b/c we have not had a lot of success in this area.

Autism is a type of developmental delay and so while I continue to plant seeds, my son just is not ready yet. So when you say the boy in your group is immature, you probably hit it exactly right when it comes to social engagement.


Thanks for the reply. :)

Besides being self-serving, I have observed what I see as true manipulation. I mentioned to his therapist that he was manipulative and the answer was "Oh, yes!", so I guess it's not just me. For instance, the 1st campout he could have attended he did not go to because there would be pocket knives there and they should all be gathered up so no one would slit his throat in the middle of the night. I went with my gut feeling and decided it was attempted manipulation because of the prohibition he would be able to force the adults to place on the other boys. At the time, his group was very effective and we sat down and talked about it. One fellow thought that he had "trust issues". I thought, sure, but that doesn't explain the manipulation. If it was just trust, he would have been more inclined to stay away from boys with knives, rather than have the adults prohibit them. What we came up with was to have some practice caring for and using knives at the next meetings. So his Mom bought him one and after that he went on campouts. But the desire to manipulate is still there. But then isn't it in all of us a bit?

The point, as you mentioned, is this doesn't seem to be typical behavior for an Asperger/HLA kid, which I suppose is actually promising in a way. I have seen what I understand to be autistic behavior, though. (I am very new to this). The boys were teaming up and doing some very safe woodworking. Hal got distracted and just kept lining up pieces of wood in a pattern instead of doing his part. We had some extra help that time and were able to get him practicing using a bit and brace separate from the other boys.

So there seems to be some truly autistic factors in involved, but as you say there is immaturity, too, regardless of where it comes from.

Anyhoo, I realize that much of what I am doing here is thinking out loud. I believe it would be much more effective to use the group dynamics of the gang he is in than adult to kid mentoring would be. But his gang isn't too functional right now. This Club is a pretty dynamic endeavor! :) I strongly believe that much of his misbehavior has been given an "autism pass" and he, like all of us, will make the best of the situation he finds himself in. Time to raise the expectations on his behavior, one way or another, I think - Tough Love.



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04 Jan 2018, 1:15 pm

magz wrote:
The examples you gave seem quite unusual for an AS child. Or even very un-aspie, if you asked me for an opinion. But maybe I don't have the whole picture.
Being manipulative is rare among Aspies. I don't say it never occurs but manipulative behaviors are significantly rarer among Aspies than in the general population. Some behaviors may be mistaken for manipulativeness but I can't see it in the example you gave. So unless you have seriously misinterpreted something, there is little to relate here.
The only typically aspie thing there is not getting the meaning of the handshake.

After some considering, given that he is indeed in the spectrum, I could speculate that he is trying to mimic other boys. He sees they do malicious practical jokes to each other and then play innocent, then mimics it without really understanding the unspoken rules and social meanings behind all this.
That's just my speculation, the way I could fit the described behavior with the ASD characteristics. May be totally wrong.


Yeah, that is what I am wondering, too. Just how far on the spectrum is Hal? Myself, I have decided I am not on the spectrum, but can see it from here. ;) But with Hal... To do the best for him, better to treat him just like another kid in the gang unless his behavior is very untypical, not just immature.

Here's a little more possible insight. Last meeting he deliberately threw a soft, small, rubber ball at my face from just a few feet away when I was holding a bag out for the balls to be put away. He had done this to others in the past. I demanded a Club Handshake and got one, which he didn't mean at all. "It hit your hat, not your face". He was pretty upset about me being mad at him. A little later I had a chance to talk with him along with the gang. When I told him it was perfectly alright for him to be mad, he looked immediately relieved. He then listened when I explained to him that pain, fear, and/or frustration is what makes us angry. And if we can identify what is causing those things, we can control our actions better. We very briefly went over what made him feel hurt, afraid, and/or frustrated when I demanded the Club Handshake, but the situation with the gang just didn't allow us to then focus on what throwing the ball in my face made me feel. Maybe next time.

I am thinking he is just borderline autistic, and also kinda spoiled. He's physically very awkward, but really tries and usually enjoys physical challenges.



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04 Jan 2018, 3:17 pm

TwoBlocked wrote:

Besides being self-serving, I have observed what I see as true manipulation. I mentioned to his therapist that he was manipulative and the answer was "Oh, yes!", so I guess it's not just me. For instance, the 1st campout he could have attended he did not go to because there would be pocket knives there and they should all be gathered up so no one would slit his throat in the middle of the night. I went with my gut feeling and decided it was attempted manipulation because of the prohibition he would be able to force the adults to place on the other boys. At the time, his group was very effective and we sat down and talked about it. One fellow thought that he had "trust issues". I thought, sure, but that doesn't explain the manipulation. If it was just trust, he would have been more inclined to stay away from boys with knives, rather than have the adults prohibit them. What we came up with was to have some practice caring for and using knives at the next meetings. So his Mom bought him one and after that he went on campouts. But the desire to manipulate is still there. But then isn't it in all of us a bit?

The point, as you mentioned, is this doesn't seem to be typical behavior for an Asperger/HLA kid, which I suppose is actually promising in a way. I have seen what I understand to be autistic behavior, though. (I am very new to this). The boys were teaming up and doing some very safe woodworking. Hal got distracted and just kept lining up pieces of wood in a pattern instead of doing his part. We had some extra help that time and were able to get him practicing using a bit and brace separate from the other boys.

So there seems to be some truly autistic factors in involved, but as you say there is immaturity, too, regardless of where it comes from.

Anyhoo, I realize that much of what I am doing here is thinking out loud. I believe it would be much more effective to use the group dynamics of the gang he is in than adult to kid mentoring would be. But his gang isn't too functional right now. This Club is a pretty dynamic endeavor! :) I strongly believe that much of his misbehavior has been given an "autism pass" and he, like all of us, will make the best of the situation he finds himself in. Time to raise the expectations on his behavior, one way or another, I think - Tough Love.


Yikes! I think we are on completely different wavelengths in interpreting this. The knife example sounds exactly what an autistic child scared of knives would do if he was brave enough and controlled enough not to be shrieking about how dangerous knives are and running from the room. He is probably very familiar with other boys not liking him and the last thing he would want is to be around a bunch of boys who might not like him who also have knives.

In addition, he might have also been afraid of hurting himself or someone else with one but did not want to be the only one/one of a few without one. The practice session probably gave him confidence that he could handle one and that the other boys would not hurt him with one. This strikes me as not manipulative and only self-serving in a very limited safety kind of way.

Tough love may be the exact opposite of how you should approach this boy. It sounds like he has had a hard life, and does not sound remotely spoiled based on anything you have written. Just like there are NT children who react differently to different kinds of discipline -- autistic kids will, too. There is a subset of autistic kids who react very very badly to "tough love", and this will worsen any behavioral issues he has if you try this. I would not take it upon myself as a relative stranger to the boy to try this.

it is very common for autistic kids (and the lining up of blocks is very indicative of autism as you noted) to not understand social aspects as that is part of the definition. There are gradations-- as it is a spectrum -- and some kids can fake going through the motions b/c it has been drummed into their heads that they have to do these things whether they mean it or not. Some won't/can't even fake it, by the way. Usually that is interpreted as rudeness as opposed to being true to their feelings. What you interpret as insincerity I see as relative proficiency at going through the motions as he was probably instructed to do his entire life. I have no idea what the club handshake means or doesn't mean to him, but anything having to do with emotions and socially expected behaviors is likely to be rough going. When neurotypical kids fake feeling sorry about something, they know to fake facial expressions, body language, and their speech/behavior in the immediate aftermath of whatever they did wrong. An autistic kid may not be able to fake any of it, or only small parts so they tend to get caught more often for this. This is what I mean by autistic kids being bad at manipulation. Doing a good job of it involves a lot of working parts that NTs are often excellent at and he is not going to be able to pull off in a convincing way.



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04 Jan 2018, 3:33 pm

Sorry for short reply, in the middle of getting children to sleep. Have you heard of PDA? Manipulation often comes up as a description of behaviour. In pda though, in my experience, the manipulation and desperate need to control the environment is anxiety driven.

http://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx


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04 Jan 2018, 4:27 pm

elsapelsa wrote:
Sorry for short reply, in the middle of getting children to sleep. Have you heard of PDA? Manipulation often comes up as a description of behaviour. In pda though, in my experience, the manipulation and desperate need to control the environment is anxiety driven.

http://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx


The United States is woefully ignorant of this particular variant of autism. I don't know if the boy described would meet that description or not; but children with that profile here tend to be misdiagnosed with ODD or otherwise improperly labelled and treated.



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04 Jan 2018, 5:00 pm

Thanks, Folks. OK, I will take it easy on the "tough love" and see how it goes.

To give all of you a bigger picture, he really looks forward to coming to meetings, and so I don't see any avoidance here. In fact he seems to enjoy taking advantage of situations. For instance, last year we had a sledding party as a meeting. During the sledding he found an opportunity to throw a snowball in each boy's face when they weren't expecting it, but just once which somehow is supposed to make it OK. I think he got me too - very deliberately rude! He said he is looking forward to another sledding party so he can do the same thing again! And as I said, he obviously doesn't mean it when giving the Club Handshake. He does it because it is expected of him, but does not say he is sorry. Instead, he indicates that he is being treated unfairly. His feels his excuses should let him off the hook. It is really a picture of an abuser, to me. Does that fit in with Autism anywhere?

Deeper, he may be just kinda stuck in "I'm in trouble and there is no way out. Saying sorry wouldn't do any good. They are angry and will stay that way so why bother? Better to try to bluff through this." He becomes emotional when in trouble, but I think lacks the self esteem to "take it on the chin" and also the empathy to understand the anger his actions cause in others. See, to me, this is pretty typical kid stuff, but usually only seen in younger boys. I wonder if he has felt much real forgiveness in his life. Just because it has been given doesn't mean he has felt it. That's the kind of "tough love" I'd like him to experience. Acceptance and forgiveness along with accountability.

More thoughts and perspective are welcome!



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04 Jan 2018, 5:47 pm

TwoBlocked wrote:
Thanks, Folks. OK, I will take it easy on the "tough love" and see how it goes.

To give all of you a bigger picture, he really looks forward to coming to meetings, and so I don't see any avoidance here. In fact he seems to enjoy taking advantage of situations. For instance, last year we had a sledding party as a meeting. During the sledding he found an opportunity to throw a snowball in each boy's face when they weren't expecting it, but just once which somehow is supposed to make it OK. I think he got me too - very deliberately rude! He said he is looking forward to another sledding party so he can do the same thing again! And as I said, he obviously doesn't mean it when giving the Club Handshake. He does it because it is expected of him, but does not say he is sorry. Instead, he indicates that he is being treated unfairly. His feels his excuses should let him off the hook. It is really a picture of an abuser, to me. Does that fit in with Autism anywhere?

Deeper, he may be just kinda stuck in "I'm in trouble and there is no way out. Saying sorry wouldn't do any good. They are angry and will stay that way so why bother? Better to try to bluff through this." He becomes emotional when in trouble, but I think lacks the self esteem to "take it on the chin" and also the empathy to understand the anger his actions cause in others. See, to me, this is pretty typical kid stuff, but usually only seen in younger boys. I wonder if he has felt much real forgiveness in his life. Just because it has been given doesn't mean he has felt it. That's the kind of "tough love" I'd like him to experience. Acceptance and forgiveness along with accountability.

More thoughts and perspective are welcome!


I think maybe I am not explaining myself very well because you seem to be going down a rabbit hole of deciding that he is not autistic based on my comments. I did not mean that he does not sound autistic. I was trying to say that your interpretation of his behaviors is not typically correct for autistic children. You are attributing NT reasoning to autistic behaviors.

Avoiding social situations is not what the avoidance part of PDA means. Kids with PDA are often unusually social for autistic children. The social part is not what they avoid. They avoid complying with direct demands because the demand itself is creating anxiety for them. This is not unusual for autistic kids who desire to be social. Some autistic kids have no interest in being social. This are often the quiet ones that don't show many behavioral issues. Then you have the ones that may be social but are compliant and try not to draw attention to themselves, and generally don't have behavioral issues. Then you have the ones who like attention and want to be social, don't know how, and often get into trouble when they try. That seems to be what is going on here.


It is not atypical for autistic children to try to lay blame elsewhere but the reasons tend to be different than the reasons for NTs. Not always, but often. You are assuming he is conniving when he is probably mostly just trying to get out of uncomfortable talks about emotions and feelings, and b/c of binary thinking he probably also thinks he is right and justified in what he does because in his world he has to be right, axiomatically, because being wrong is not always something easy to accept. Also he apparently possesses enough social skills to know you expect him to to do that handshake. I am sure many of the non-autistic boys are also doing it insincerely b/c you have made it clear you expect it. They just hide it better.

It sounds to me like this boy is in the no-win situation where he has just enough social skills to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of it and can't do everything he is expected to do afterwards. Doing the handshake is not going to make him feel sorry. He does it for the same reason we say thank you for gifts we don't like and perform many of the other social tasks we are expected to do. he has -some- skills, but it does not mean he is not autistic.

Your main issue is that he behaves poorly when trying to engage with the group, doesn't understand what he did wrong, and/or cannot accept he is wrong and therefore is not sorry. If you don't want him to do the handshake when he is not really sorry, you could try telling him that-- that but at this point, you are likely to confuse him more than he is already confused now. I don't think that is what you want anyway. You want him to do the handshake and feel sorry, sincerely sorry, and not be faking it.

The problem is that you want him to feel something he doesn't feel. This is a long-term issue that there is no magic bullet for. The fact that he even attempts to fake this is actually a decent skill. It is not being manipulative. It is a skill he acquired over time b/c adults have been telling him to make insincere statements/gestures his whole life. We all have been taught that through socialization. If you get a gift from someone you don't like, I doubt you tell the giver that. You may try to hedge and thank them for the effort, but if push comes to shove, you will say you like it even when you don't.



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04 Jan 2018, 6:40 pm

^^ second all of the above. Asdmommyasdkid has it spot on.

I am interested to hear that PDA has such little recognition in the USA. PDA kids are often highly social, good at masking and imitating behaviour and as pda is highly dynamic the demand avoidance part will increase with stress or under certain circumstances and be fairly unnoticeable in others.


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04 Jan 2018, 9:05 pm

Thanks all. Food for thought.

Let me put it this way. I question that the behavior problems are due to autism. (First I heard of PDA...) Other things I see, yes. Hal is socially awkward for instance. But plotting to make others uncomfortable? No, I see that as a maturity and discipline problem.

We had a meeting tonight and I kept closer tabs on him than usual, questioning him when he chose to do things other than what the rest of the gang were doing. Things that I had no doubt were intended to be disruptive, rather than just being in his own world, doing his own thing, or an awkward attempt at socializing. As he realized that I had higher expectations of him, he rose to meet them. Not that he was happy to do so, and I wouldn't expect any other boy that had desires to be disruptive to be happy to do so either. Later there were some sort of odd things that he said that I could chalk up to autism. But then there was also a tentative future plan the gang came up with that would require them to really function as a team. He then enthusiastically stuck with what the others were doing, in his awkward way.

I think he will benefit from a firm, fair, caring hand.

As far as the Club Handshake, it is something most of the boys take very seriously and is used for more than saying sorry. It is part of the Group Identity that makes our endeavor work. After starting with this thread I have decided to never expect him or any other boy to use it insincerely. The challenge to them will then be: "What are you doing here if you think it is OK to hurt others? Is this a place you want to be if others think it is OK to hurt you?" It goes with the moral character that we hope they will build.



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05 Jan 2018, 4:35 am

I think it is admirable that you sought out this forum and that you are looking for ways to better understand and help this boy. Obviously none of us are there and can see what is going on or can comment with certainty on any specifics. I hope you don't mind me saying but I think part of understanding how you can best help him is about your own viewpoint. Are you simply looking to find useful ways in which the boy can "fit into the group" and be less disruptive or are you looking for ways in which you can help an autistic boy become a more confident autistic boy able to articulate his very specific needs and better deal with the challenges of being autistic in a group of individuals with limited understanding of autism and the challenges he might face?

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they might nonetheless require different strategies and approaches.


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05 Jan 2018, 5:20 am

A lot of autism is about not getting the "obvious" part of social interaction.
HFA is very often met with misinterpretation.
Every example of "manipulation" or "being disruptive" you mentioned could be reinterpreted.
He hit every boy only once. He touched every boy with a hot hot dog once. Do you know what it means for me? It means he is trying to stick to the rules. But as nobody has explained the rules to him, he is trying to figure them out himself.
I guess the boys in the group are allowed some degree of mischievious behaviors. He sees it, knows it, tries to do the same but does not understand the limits of acceptance because they are in the "obvious" social zone he cannot navigate.
Hitting you with a snowball is most probably not getting social hierarchies, something very common in ASD. I remember the silence and staring when I threw a pack of tissues to a professor when he asked for some... I just need to constantly remind myself that people do not treat each other as equals, even if this is how I see them.

So my advice is: the more you explain your expectations and the rules to him, the better his outcome will be. Only remember, he cannot navigate the "obvious" social space. He needs his limits to be objective, measurable that he could put in a table and objectively compare his behaviors to them.

I still say he probably doesn't get the idea of the club handshake. It's just some ritual for him, he doesn't get the "obvious" social meaning of this, nor can he fake it.

I'm fairly worried that his therapist sees him as manipulative. If he is constantly misinterpreted by his therapist, it won't do any good to him.


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05 Jan 2018, 7:42 am

elsapelsa wrote:
I think it is admirable that you sought out this forum and that you are looking for ways to better understand and help this boy. Obviously none of us are there and can see what is going on or can comment with certainty on any specifics. I hope you don't mind me saying but I think part of understanding how you can best help him is about your own viewpoint. Are you simply looking to find useful ways in which the boy can "fit into the group" and be less disruptive or are you looking for ways in which you can help an autistic boy become a more confident autistic boy able to articulate his very specific needs and better deal with the challenges of being autistic in a group of individuals with limited understanding of autism and the challenges he might face?

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they might nonetheless require different strategies and approaches.


Ugh, thought I had responded to your post only to find it missing when called up on another computer. Here goes again. :)

Thank You for your thoughtful post.

Yes, my own view point. Things can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially as a youth leader. Like with a "winners never quit, and quitters never win" attitude you will end up with a thin slice of society comprised of overachievers that consider themselves to be elite. But how to keep from this sort of trap? What this Club strives to do is bring a program out of the boys rather than put the boys through a program. Boys naturally form gangs. By starting with what is natural for them and building upon that, it is less likely to go astray. I have seen it work very well over and over again including with Hal. If the adults focus on inspiring, challenging and encouraging the gang as a whole then the boys really benefit from their interactions because they are personally invested in the outcome. The adults don't look for ways that "fit into the group." The boys themselves do that.

But that only works when there is a functioning gang with a group identity. Due to recent sporadic attendance, that is not the case with Hal's gang, although quite a bit of progress was made in that direction yesterday. So sometimes it may be best for the adults to interact more directly with a boy.

So to answer your very pertinent question: "Are you simply looking to find useful ways in which the boy can "fit into the group" and be less disruptive or are you looking for ways in which you can help an autistic boy become a more confident autistic boy able to articulate his very specific needs and better deal with the challenges of being autistic in a group of individuals with limited understanding of autism and the challenges he might face? " I have to say neither. I am not trying to help an autistic boy. I am trying to help a gang of boys that, as a group, may (or may not) be challenged by autism, or home life, or athletics, or climate change, or what have you. That is when there is a functioning gang. In the meantime, I sometimes need to deal with specific behavior problems. If it is a behavior that a boy just can't help, that is one thing. If it is a behavior where a boy is trying to get something good, but in the wrong way, as I think it is with Hal, that is another.


_________________
"The Child is father of the man" William Wordsworth


Last edited by TwoBlocked on 05 Jan 2018, 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwoBlocked
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 4 Jan 2018
Age: 1968
Gender: Male
Posts: 30
Location: Pennsylvania

05 Jan 2018, 8:01 am

magz wrote:
...

I'm fairly worried that his therapist sees him as manipulative. If he is constantly misinterpreted by his therapist, it won't do any good to him.


I am worried also, but for the opposite reason. If the therapist sees him as manipulative (as I do), how does that fit in with him being autistic? But to be fair, this particular therapist is new to him, and I think was actually only involved for a short time. She probably was not the one to diagnose Hal with High Functioning Autism. This is someone I have known for a while and feel she sometimes has personal agendas that skew her observations and decisions. (Well don't we all...) She is also the one that steered the family towards our Club because we are "Christian" which the family also values.

In hindsight, everyone involved sees Hal doing much better emotionally and socially. I have to assume that what is going on in the Club is "good medicine" for him. For another similarly challenged boy, perhaps not.

And from what I see, Hal understands perfectly what the Club Handshake is about - reconciliation. He just doesn't care for the humility of forgiving or admitting fault. (Who does?) Pride is a universal human trait and is the cause of all our woes.


_________________
"The Child is father of the man" William Wordsworth