challenging behaviour: when to engage when to dis-engage

Page 2 of 3 [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

eikonabridge
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 929

13 Jan 2018, 1:34 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
You talk all the time about how happy your kid is. Well my kid is happy too. ... I am incredibly happy with how we are doing.

Good, as long as children and parents are happy, it's all good. I just get sick and tired of people whining about autism, and then turn around and tell people how to raise kids.

There is so much more to parenting autistic children. I'd rather be talking about how to use GIMP and Inkscape to darken the outlines of comic drawings, whether there are alternative deep-learning tools to these tasks, where to find on-line comic book publishers to print out my children's comic books so that they can share with their friends. I'd rather be talking about Arduino and Raspberry Pi projects for young children. I'd rather be talking about how I can get to talk to autistic children in Japan for video conferencing with my daughter, so that my daughter can have fun and talk to Japanese children. I'd like to talk about how to introduce complex numbers via geometric algebra to young children. I'd like to find out whether other children are learning to do Artificial Intelligence / Deep Learning using Google's TensorFlow library. See, autism is and should be fun. There is bound to be autistic children out there in the world that share your children's interests. Life is so much more beyond schools. However, if I start to talk about these things, people would look at me as if I am from a different planet... when all they talk about is how to handle their children's behaviors!


_________________
Jason Lu
http://www.eikonabridge.com/


ASDMommyASDKid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,666

13 Jan 2018, 2:28 pm

eikonabridge wrote:
ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
You talk all the time about how happy your kid is. Well my kid is happy too. ... I am incredibly happy with how we are doing.

Good, as long as children and parents are happy, it's all good. I just get sick and tired of people whining about autism, and then turn around and tell people how to raise kids.

There is so much more to parenting autistic children. I'd rather be talking about how to use GIMP and Inkscape to darken the outlines of comic drawings, whether there are alternative deep-learning tools to these tasks, where to find on-line comic book publishers to print out my children's comic books so that they can share with their friends. I'd rather be talking about Arduino and Raspberry Pi projects for young children. I'd rather be talking about how I can get to talk to autistic children in Japan for video conferencing with my daughter, so that my daughter can have fun and talk to Japanese children. I'd like to talk about how to introduce complex numbers via geometric algebra to young children. I'd like to find out whether other children are learning to do Artificial Intelligence / Deep Learning using Google's TensorFlow library. See, autism is and should be fun. There is bound to be autistic children out there in the world that share your children's interests. Life is so much more beyond schools. However, if I start to talk about these things, people would look at me as if I am from a different planet... when all they talk about is how to handle their children's behaviors!


Actually, I think you are wrong. The math videos you suggest, are often helpful. That said, people who are having issues are going to post about issues and they will be looking for help. That has been a large part of this forum for longer than you or I have been posting. There is nothing wrong with posting these things and it should not be discouraged. I have posted asking questions before, and I will also post giving advice.

There is nothing wrong with this. You can be pro neurodiversity without having to portray everything as rainbows and unicorns. You think everything on NT parenting forums is full of rainbows and unicorns? No, they post about their issues too. There is some overlap, but the issues are often different and the solutions are different too b/c they are by and for NT people. Why should they be the only ones to be able to ask for and get advice? It makes sense for us to have our own forum for this.

When we had more people on here, we had more positive stuff too. I, personally, tend not to post all the positive things we are doing b/c I generally wait for a relevant thread and honestly it is hard to do it without coming off as being braggadocios.

We once had threads where someone would start a thread like, "Cool thing my kid did, today," and people would post on it but we don't have a lot of regular posters these days. If you post a thread like that, specifically saying you welcome other people to post the good things too, maybe you will get the more positive stuff you want.

We have so few regulars now, I don't know if it would get critical mass; but if that is your view of what we need more of, you could try. If you post stuff your kid does, hoping people will follow your lead, people are not going to necessarily chime in with their own stuff, b/c they don't want to step on your child's accomplishment and sometimes people need to be expressly told that is what you want.



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

16 Jan 2018, 1:29 am

eikonabridge wrote:
ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
You actually reminded me, we went through a stage with paper ripping. I was trying to get my son an alternative way of expressing his strong negative feelings and my son didn't want to punch pillows or any of the other things I tried to get him to do instead of thrashing about and one day he saw paper (trash stuff, luckily) and began ripping it. After that, I started saving junk mail to have on hand for that purpose. He has not needed to do it in a long time, but it was really useful at that point in time. Whenever you try to extinguish a behavior that is destructive or dangerous, it really is important that they find the replacement behavior to actually be a satisfying replacement or it won't work. (I forget a lot of the stuff we had to do as interim baby steps)

DW_a_mom wrote:
... Therefore, the best response is likely to be to direct her into self calming activities like pacing, swinging or other movement...

... but your primary goal should be to identify what causes her stress and help her learn to mitigate it so that she no longer has meltdowns or the violence that can precede or accompany them.

... So realizing that all these behaviors are likely to be clues that something is starting to go wrong inside her head will help you solve the biggest puzzle: how to stop the meltdowns.

... See if focusing on ACTIVE self-calming behaviors (those that involve purposeful movement) can help here. My son was a pacer: acting out a whole other life while walking, talking, climbing over things, squishing manipulables, etc.

All those are ABA approaches. All those ideas came from neurotypical people. All those approaches view autism as a defect that needs to be corrected. All those approaches assume that the children are incapable of figuring out solutions on their own and must be taught the right/alternative behaviors. All those approaches presume parents are at a higher authority level than the children. All those approaches are uni-directional: from parents to children. All those approaches don't treat children as equal-rights human beings. All those approaches teach autistic children that they should be ashamed of their behaviors. All those approaches aim at manipulating autistic children so to change their behaviors.

(cut)



I apologize in advance, the below is harsh, but I felt you were being harsh (and wrong) to me.

I'm calling BS on your judgement here. I have NEVER done ABA. Almost EVERYTHING I did with my son, and that I recommend here, was developed with the help of people on forums like this who have ASD. We didn't even HAVE ABA when I started, at least not that I had ever heard of (I actually go back to the time Aspies for Freedom existed and Wrong Planet did not).

The behaviors I addressed ARE warning signs and THAT is why a parent might seek to mitigate them. Not to mention, does a parent or sibling really have to put up with getting hit just because you oddly think a tantrum can be "instructive"? I have NOT suggested trying to mitigate stims and other behaviors that the NT world thinks are "different." I focused very specifically on knowing when a child is STRESSED. Do YOU want to feel stressed? Do you want your children to feel stressed? Worse, do you want to have meltdowns? NO.

You get so obsessed over wording you don't like that you miss the whole point: keeping the child from being overwhelmed and stressed and, thus, having meltdowns (in other words, keeping them HAPPY). My son considers meltdowns to be THE worst feeling in the world and he would prefer never, ever to have one again in his life. So, yes, I think parents should help children learn to avoid them! It takes way too much out of the child and the family. You may be cool with it but 99.9% of the world is not, and that most definitely includes my ASD son.

Funny thing, I also have a son who wants to be around people, hold jobs, and so on. So, yes, I did teach him how to interact with the world successfully, but home was ALWAYS the safe place. And THAT I ALSO made clear in my post: home is where an ASD child should be able to be their true selves.

Sometimes your judgemental attitudes are too much. If you want to be heard for the good things you offer (and you do have much) you need to stop jumping to negative conclusions about other people. I don't know if you actually are arrogant or if its just your communication style that comes across poorly (my poor son got slammed for perceived arrogance by his ex), but it isn't productive to do what you did in your post.

I'm also surprised that you enjoy using the word tantrum in your post. Tantrums are negative behavior designed to get what someone wants (but doesn't really need) by intentionally misbehaving. Because parents are taught tantrums should not be tolerated, I am very careful to NOT use that term for ASD behaviors. I can say sincerely that when my son was engaged in negative and aggressive behaviors he wasn't doing it intentionally in the hopes he would get what he wanted. He was reacting as he did because he was unable to control his behavior, or had a NEED that had to be addressed quickly. The difference means everything to how parents will react. No control/true need = patient response. Control/want = discipline response.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


eikonabridge
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 929

20 Jan 2018, 1:26 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm calling BS on your judgement here. I have NEVER done ABA.

Ha. When have I ever talked without backing up my words? My postings usually come with plenty of links. I cite references, all the time. It's the habit of a scientist. No one else has provided more links, images, videos here in this forum. That, is a fact.

From the website called "I LOVE ABA" http://www.iloveaba.com/, we find the following items:

Extinction
http://www.iloveaba.com/2011/12/extinction-procedures.html
"... Extinction is a behavioral term that basically means to determine the function/cause of a behavior and then to terminate access to that function in order to extinguish the behavior..."
"... When doing an extinction procedure consistency must be really strong, so as an ABA professional it will be important to get the family on board with the treatment before you try to implement it...."

Replacement Behaviors
http://www.iloveaba.com/2012/09/aba-in-classroom.html
"... Applied Behavior Analysis is not just a reputable and empirically supported treatment method for managing the symptoms of Autism. It's much larger than that.... it is my job to teach that child other replacement behaviors to request a break from tasks..."

Alternative Behaviors
http://www.iloveaba.com/2012/11/dra-differential-reinforcement-of.html
"... DRA, or Differential Reinforcement of Alternative Behavior, is an ABA technique used to reduce problem behaviors. ABA professionals always seek to accomplish behavior reduction through ethical, reinforcement based methods first. In other words we don’t just seek to make a problem behavior stop. We ask ourselves “What can I teach this child to do instead of this problem behavior?”"

Coping skills
http://www.iloveaba.com/2014/08/teaching-coping-skills.html
"...Coping skills teach the skills of self-management, labeling one’s own emotional state, controlling impulses, engaging in thoughtful behavior, and making good choices. "

These are all ABA jargon. So, you guys unfortunately have been using the approach of ABA proponents, without knowing about it. Sorry to disappoint you.

Quote:
Do you want your children to feel stressed? Worse, do you want to have meltdowns? NO.

Ha, I can't even tell you how many problems I have solved by through stress and meltdowns. Due to the parties involved, I cannot reveal too much, because I appreciate them making changes, adapting themselves, and being willing to learn. Changes happen in human society all the time, because people express their opinions forcefully. Let us face it, you cannot go into a bargaining table and win by being polite and nice. Look at so many people here in the forum, needing to seek advocates/lawyers. In my case, school teachers instead cooperate with me. You think people cooperate with me because I am always so nice and friendly? How come I succeed with schools, whereas other parents fail? I get things done. I make changes happen. I would never have accomplished that without stress or meltdowns. Proper stress and anger is what move the world forward.

I've never asked anybody not to throw tantrums. Even more strange, I don't recall any instances where I have asked for my children's apology. I mean, I asked my wife and she immediately could recall when she asked my son to apologize to her. Sure, I have asked my children to apologize to other people. But I simply cannot recall asking my children to apologize to me, ever. Also, I have never used the word "misbehavior" on my children, it's not even part of my vocabulary. I mean, people have to realize that I truly have a different perspective on things. I solve all the problems that you guys want to solve, and more, by viewing things from a very different perspective. Somehow, I don't have the need to demand for apologies, weird, now that I think about it. I do apologize to other people. But weird that I have other ways of accomplishing things without demanding apologies from other people. My point is, there is really an autistic way of raising children that is completely foreign to neurotypical people. You think tantrums/meltdowns in children must be avoided at all cost, I don't. Strangely, my children are happier and easier than your children. That, is a fact.

People can scratch their heads all they want. But you have to admit: as counter-intuitive as I do things, I am extremely successful with my children. In fact, I haven't seen anyone else nearly as successful. That, is also a fact. I mean, who else here has claimed that having autistic children is fun, and encouraged people to have autistic children instead of neurotypical children?

Quote:
My son considers meltdowns to be THE worst feeling in the world and he would prefer never, ever to have one again in his life.

Tell him that the USA came into existence because some people had a gigantic meltdown, and that plenty of people today are thankful for that. Tell him he needs to feel proud about himself. Then tell him: sometimes life is tough... sometimes life is fun. Life moves on.

Quote:
I don't know if you actually are arrogant or if its just your communication style that comes across poorly

I've talked plenty about this. There is not much one can do about some people. Some are bound to take offense, some others make great friends. What can you do? See, here are two video clips that I have repeatedly posted in the past. One is Leonard Susskind talking about his friend Richard Feynman. The other one is from Murray Gell-Mann, talking about the same Richard Feynman. Susskind is so upbeat and laughing all the time, as if Feynman were the coolest person on earth. Gell-Mann is resentful and does not mind trashing a dead person who has hired him in the first place. So, it's all relative. In the case of these three guys, would you: (a) ask Feynman to change, (b) ask Susskind to change, or (c) ask Gell-Mann to change? See, believe it or not, out there, Feynman is the most popular person out of the three, by far. As for my opinion, when a person wants to talk about facts and the other person wants to talk about feelings, of course there is collision. I think the evil exists only inside Gell-Mann's mind. Kind of unfortunate, but what can you do?




Quote:
... he did because he was unable to control his behavior

That, is denigrating. It's dehumanizing. It assumes some sort of ghost taking over a person's conscious decisions. It points to a person losing mental faculties, and it portraits autism as a mental disorder.

It's all matter of perspective. I would advise not taking that point of view. I much rather take autistic people's actions as sovereign decisions and deal with those decisions from there. You owe people certain minimum respect. When you start to view people as unable to make conscious decisions, you are not treating them as equal-rights fellow human beings anymore. You've crossed a red line.

Similarly, people that have to view themselves as unable to control their behaviors of course will not have self-esteem. That's a given.

Taking that point of view perpetuates the negative stereotype of autistic people as dangerous and unpredictable. It's no surprise that very few families are willing to adopt autistic children. Who would want to adopt dangerous and unpredictable children?

As I say, it's all matter of perspective. I can't prevent people from choosing a bad perspective. I can only say the harm is great, for the children, when parents decide to view things from that perspective. People have to believe me that there is a whole different perspective of looking at things, without dehumanizing your children. I know what all the issues are, I know what the parents want in their children, but there are better ways to achieve the same outcomes, without damaging the self-esteem of your children.

I know it's hard for neurotypical people to change their mindset and understand what I am saying. But I know it's possible. If my neurotypical wife can do it, so can anyone else.

- - - - -

Below is not addressed to anyone in particular.

Children are not born monsters. They are made into monsters. Early childhoold (until 5 years old) is when crucial personality traits form. See, people argue with me all the time that there is no need to teach autistic children to read early on, that their children don't really communicate through pictures. Recently one person here even said he wouldn't take a child out for fun activities, because that would be rewarding the child for his bad behaviors. Huh? See, people argue with me on all those things. Guess what? Let's compare what happens next.

- I am able to remove my children's frustrations and bad feeling every day, in their early childhood, even when they are non-verbal. Because my children learn to read early on, they get exposed to so much more information than other children on the spectrum. Because my children see my elbow creating pictures and have positive warm feeling about it all, they later mimic my actions and start to make drawings on their own, allowing their creativity to thrive.

- The other parents have zero way of removing frustrations from their children, during early childhood. (They have chosen not to draw pictures, remember?) The negative feelings pile up day after day, week after week, year after year. Early childhood is wasted, and their children are stuck with temper issues. Their children then becomes impossible to accomodate in school. Their children also have deficiency in creativity and don't receive comprehensible information stimuli. Then home schooling becomes the only viable choice. Many parents end up divorced. Many parents end up taking medications themselves, on top of their children. Many of these children grow into adults that are permanently stuck with anxiety and sensory problems, with low or no self-esteem.

Is it because my children have mellower temper? Or are the other children made more difficult, due to their parents' choice?

When people dismiss my repeated begging to them to draw pictures and teach their children to read at early age, or treating children as equal-right human beings and avoid using authority, they think they are clever. They only find out later that their children become more and more difficult. Then, they blame it all on their children. They say, they are unlucky because their children are harder than my children. That their children are little dictators. Yeah right. YOU have made your children harder, because you have wasted their early years, by refusing to develop them visual-manually and by refusing to treat them as equals. While I was using my hands to draw pictures, make animation video clips, and teach my children to read, you were running around trying out all sorts of useless therapies on your children, or even drugging them up. When have you ever spent time to develop your children with your hands? See, it was always about "buy-vs-build." You only wanted to "buy", whereas I was always for "build." You have gambled with your children's early childhood, and you have lost your bet.

My attitude today is: go ahead, make your bet, play your game. I'll continue to tell people what to do. Whether they listen or not, it's none of my business. My children will continue to plow ahead, with big smiles every day. It's a competitive world. You snooze, you lose. No need to cry. It's not that your children have made your life hard: YOU have made your life hard. It was YOUR choice. Information is free, everyone gets access to the same information. You didn't want to listen. It's your own fault.


_________________
Jason Lu
http://www.eikonabridge.com/


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

22 Jan 2018, 9:13 pm

You can "ha!" all you want, but it isn't my problem if ABA pulled in terminology that mirrors what we do here, and the fact of the matter is that I raised an extremely confident, happy, and well functioning Aspie young adult who is proud to be an Aspie. I give myself the win, and I earned it with over a decade of heads down, pay attention to my child, hard work. I learned with a little help from extensive conversations with adult Aspies, parents, experts, and more. I NEVER spent money or effort on wasted, trendy therapies. I GOT TO KNOW MY CHILD, FIRST AND FOREMOST. I KNOW that my approach has succeeded, and my son, now an adult, agrees.

Your family is still young; we don't actually know how your theories will play out into their adult lives, do we? I have confidence in you, but not enough to allow you to assume your judgement is always better than mine. You don't know me and you don't know how I've parented; you read things into what I write that do not exist and make assumptions based on your negative readings of NTs as a whole. I don't know why you have a need to treat my posts as something to debate; our approaches are not all that different. You simply refuse to take the time to actually understand mine. Yes, you have a communication disorder, and if you want to be heard you also have to try to listen.

I am happy to have you provide alternate theories and approach, and I truly do love some of your suggestions, but please stop doing it by trying to take down things I (or any other parent) have written. THAT is what I have an issue with. We are all on the same team; you don't seem to realize that.

Here is the ultimate golden rule for this board that you seem to forget: every child and every family is different, and that includes Aspie ones.

You have no idea what would and would not have worked for my son (or any child discussed here) because you have never, ever met him. I post suggestions based on what I know worked for us; I have never claimed to have the one and only high and mighty answer that will apply in all cases. So, please, stop acting like you know everything better. You don't. You are one voice of many, all valid, even when we disagree. None of us know what approach is best for any other poster's child; that is for the parent to sort. There is no need to try to discredit or debate others. Parenting, by its nature, has no single answer. You are wrong to assume that the only reason some parent on here continues to have problems is because they didn't follow your advice; you have no way to know; their child isn't exactly like yours. Remember that, share your ideas in that vein, and we'll get along just fine.

And, good grief, LOTS of parents here have talked about how fun and special their Aspie children are. You really think you are the only one that loves your children just as they are? I have ALWAYS ADORED my son and enjoyed the window I've been given into the way a unique mind works. I can't believe I actually have to write this! You REALLY are not paying attention to us beyond looking for debate points and negative trigger words, are you?

But, jeez, all children can be challenging at times, and our children do have more difficulties interacting with the outside world, so why shouldn't we talk about those things here, with people who can actually understand and help? Never misinterpret that as us loving, appreciating, or having less success with our children. We just aren't too locked into our own ways of thinking to admit sometimes a little help is useful.

I haven't lost anything. I've never claimed my son made my life miserable. You assumption that I have is incredibly off base. I'm not an "Autism Speaks" video; jeez. I'll put my now grown very happy child next to yours any day and let you compare.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).