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MM99
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15 Jan 2018, 10:54 am

I had never heard about this disorder before, but now that I have I think I completely meet the criteria for it, and now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis.
The thing is that I don't see the difference between NVLD and comorbid ASD, ADHD and DMCD (Developmental Motor Coordination Disorder) with extreme executive dysfunction, which was what I thought I had (and I think I also meet the criteria for the three of them).
Could someone explain to me the difference? It scares to me a lot to not be in the spectrum, because in the last few years it's become such a big part of my identity.
(I know I should go to a psychiatrist instead of asking this on the internet, and that's what I'm going to do soon, but I wanted to hear the opinions of other people now)



MM99
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15 Jan 2018, 11:04 am

Also, here in Europe the diagnosis may be different to in the United States because we don't use the DSM 5, so keep that in mind (although I think NVLD isn't a formal diagnosis neither in the DSM 5, nor in the ICD-10 or its upcoming update, the ICD-11)



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15 Jan 2018, 3:13 pm

I have both NVLD and Asperger's. I know NVLD isn't an "official" diagnosis in the DSM-5. Not sure about ICD-10, but I think you're right that it's not an official diagnosis in there, either. So, the main criterion for NVLD is that an individual has a 15+ point difference between a person's Verbal IQ (VIQ) and Performance IQ (PIQ). In other words, a person's VIQ is significantly higher than their PIQ. For example, I showed a 17-point difference between my VIQ and PIQ. Even more telling, I had a 35-point difference between my Vocabulary subscore and my Perceptual Differences subscore. The neuropsychologist who administered my IQ test told me that this equated to an NVLD diagnosis, IF it existed. Since it didn't/doesn't, my technical diagnosis is "learning disorder NOS."

With me at least, the NVLD really only comes into play with my visual-spatial/math deficits. Otherwise, I just say I have Asperger's. There isn't all that much research in those who have NVLD without being on the spectrum. There are a ton of commonalities between the two, but from what I've read, pure NVLD doesn't really include true special interests (Asperger's/ASD special interests are much more intense and prevalent), and the social difficulties aren't as profound. So, in conclusion, just because you think you may have NVLD, you can certainly also be on the spectrum. If you've already received an official ASD diagnosis, then really all you'd need to do to see if you have NVLD is take an official IQ test.



MM99
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15 Jan 2018, 5:27 pm

Thank you for your answer!! Now that I know it's possible to have both ASD and NVLD I'm less worried about not being on the spectrum (I don't have a diagnosis yet, but I definetly have very intense and prevalent special interests and profound social skills problems).
I've done two IQ tests (the first when I was 13 and the second when I was 15) with the high school counselor. In both of them my score was overall high (around 130/135) but I did extremely well (with a percentile around 95) in verbal skills and average in the nonverbal ones (even below average in the visual-spatial skills). However, I did quite well in the mathematical skills too (although not near as well as in the verbal ones), so I don't know if the difference is big enough or not. They didn't give me an overall verbal skills score and an overall nonverbal skills score to compare. But anyway, I don't even know if NVLD is a diagnosis that is given in my region, so I'm more focused in the ASD diagnosis



SilentJessica
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03 Feb 2018, 6:09 am

An IQ test from when I was 5 showed that I had a 40 point discrepancy between my verbal skills (which were better) and performance skills, but the report didn't mention anything about NVLD, so I'm not sure if I have it.


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You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)

AQ: 40
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MrKnott
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06 Apr 2018, 2:46 pm

I guess NVLD includes ASD people who (like myself and my son) have strong (abnormally strong) verbal skills but deficits in other areas--areas in which AS people are assumed to excel. Oh, and throw in the social skills problems (affect, eye contact, etc.). I also have a verbal IQ that is at least 40pts above other areas--my reach exceeds my grasp, to paraphrase the poet, and it ain't fun. If the full scale IQ told the whole story, things would be great, but it doesn't work that way, not for me. Good to know there are people in a similar situation. My dr. and therapist say it's best to stick with the ASD diagnosis--spectrums within spectrums, huh?



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06 Apr 2018, 5:51 pm

I have autism and this. The verbal difference for me was 19 points. In the report, it says "indicates a nonverbal learning disability...".


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01 May 2018, 9:41 pm

What is the opposite of this? Dyslexia? I have a 40 point discrepancy too, but my verbal (listening comprehension) is average and my logic/reasoning is extremely high.



P192
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03 May 2018, 9:19 pm

This is a good link if you'd like to find a difference between NLD and AS. http://www.nldline.com/yvonna.htm

I have a 30 point gap between my verbal and performance IQ, with a very superior verbal score and average performance IQ. Within performance IQ I scored in the very superior range on the Matrix Reasoning and Figure Weights tests (fluid reasoning) but below average on the Block Design and Visual Puzzles tests (visual-construction and spatial). I can do math and science but I do it by reading patterns and not actually visualizing the problem. I'll remember the equations and analyze similarities between it and another problem and figure it out (gifted fluid reasoning) but I won't do it "the right way". I'm also a bad driver.



nca14
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20 Aug 2018, 10:21 am

I know about NVLD since 2008 and even then I thought that I may have it. I told about NVLD during my AS diagnosis 17.10.2008. I supposed that my VIQ is higher than my PIQ. At late spring 2016 I did Wechsler IQ test in day hospital. Results were interesting. FSIQ: 117.

VIQ: 126
Arithmetic: 18
Information: 17
Vocabulary: 14
Similarities: 13
Comprehension: 13
Digit Span: 11

PIQ: 104
Block Design: 14
Coding: 13
Object Assembly: 9
Picture Completion: 9
Picture Arrangement: 8

Arithmetic was significantly better than Vocabulary, which may be atypical for NVLD. In performance part Block Design and Coding were the best (I read about a boy with NVLD who had the lowest results in Block Design and Coding: http://www.nldline.com/bonny_forrest_asvsnld.htm).

On first page which was presented when I typed phrase block design coding nvld in Google I found intersting fragment: "The discrepancy between Allen’s average Block Design and below average Object Assembly scores was similar to what Weintraub and Mesulam (1983) reported when noting that a higher percentage of their patients with NLD had Block Design scores within the normal range compared with Object Assembly scores".

I am currently diagnosed with a pervasive developmental disorder - Asperger's syndrome (in ICD-10, not DSM), schizotypal disorder (also from ICD-10) and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Are people with NVLD without PDD/ASD socially inept? I think that NVLD causing social ineptitude (or, and co-existent with emotional or behavioral anomalies like "manic" interests, strange customs, problems with sensory stimuli, autostimulating behaviors) should be placed in one category of developmental disorders with ASD, not with "pure" learning disabilities like dyslexia or dyscalculia.

How common VIQ higher at least 15 points than PIQ is among general population? How common it is among individuals with Asperger's, PDD, ASD? I suppose that Aspies may have VIQ significantly higher than PIQ much more often than people from general population. I think that there should be a subtype of PDD/ASD corresponding to NVLD with anomalies in social, emotional and behavioral areas.



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21 Aug 2018, 2:22 pm

IQ profile of the NVLD boy from http://www.nldline.com/bonny_forrest_asvsnld.htm (who had certain social problems, I would place his NVLD in one category of developmental disorders with ASD due to it):

VIQ: 110
Vocabulary: 16
Information: 14
Comprehension: 11
Similarities:10
Digit Span: 10
Arithmetic: 7

PIQ: 69
Picture Completion: 8
Object Assembly: 8
Symbol Search: 8
Picture Arrangement: 5
Coding: 2
Block Design: 1

FSIQ: 88

In VIQ, that boy was the worst in Arithmetic - in my case the result of Arithmetic subtest was the highest among VIQ. In PIQ, that boy was the worst in Block Design - in my case the result of Block Design subtest was the highest among PIQ.

My VIQ was 22 points higher than PIQ (the difference is almost 1,5 standard deviation). It was written that my IQ results suggests schizoaffective disorder according to Rabin and Piedmont formula.

Here is another NVLD(?) profile - viewtopic.php?t=234613:

VIQ: 132 (I suppose that it may be in fact 123 because Digit Span and Arithmetic are relatively low)
Vocabulary: 18
Information: 15
Similarities: 14
Comprehension: 13
Arithmetic: 11
Digit Span: 9

PIQ: 89
Letter-Number Sequencing(?, probably PIQ): 9
Visual Puzzles: 9
Symbol Search: 8
Block Design: 8
Matrix Reasoning: 7
Coding: 5

Do I have NVLD? I have significantly higher VIQ than PIQ. I had relatively low results in Object Assembly (I did not know what is the last of the puzzles used in the test) and Digit Span. Both profiles mentioned in this post have relatively low results in Digit Span, such as I. I think that low Digit Span (especially in comparison to VCI stats, like Information or Vocabulary) may be common feature in NVLD. I am diagnosed with AS, not NVLD, although my IQ profile was dysharmonic.



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28 Aug 2018, 3:04 pm

NVLD boy from my latest post had better result in Object Assembly (8) than in Arithmetic (7). I had MUCH better results in Arithmetic (18) than in Object Assembly (9) - the difference is 9 "large" points, about three standard deviations (when one SD is 15 (in IQ results) or 3 (in one subtest like Block Design or Information).

The boy scored higher in Vocabulary (16) than me (14). I scored quite significantly higher in Arithmetic (18) than in Vocabulary (14) - the difference was 4 "large" points, above 1 SD. If I would score in all subscales like on Picture Arrangement test (8), my FSIQ would be 89, and if I would score in all subscales like on Arithmetic (18), my FSIQ would be 141. The difference between my best result and worst result in IQ test was 10 "large" points, above 3 SDs. I had pretty dysharmonic results.

I have no dyscalculia. In my basic level secondary school-leaving examination from Mathematics I had 100%, in advanced level I had 92%. In my elementary school I had very good grades in Maths.



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29 Aug 2018, 2:49 pm

My Verbal Comprehension Index (VCI) was 125, Working Memory Index (WMI) was about 120 - 125 and Perceptual Organization Index (POI) was 100. POI was 25 points lower than VCI while VIQ was 22 points higher than PIQ.
VCI - POI split may be even better tool to diagnose NVLD than VIQ-PIQ split in my opinion.

I make an error in the test when I was at sixth grade of elementary school in task associated with graphs. People with NVLD may have problems with reading graphs. I rather have not them. I also do not remember having problems with reading clocks or maps.

I found a page about NVLD on which there is written:

Quote:
Typically, people with nonverbal learning disabilities show:

* excellent memory for things they hear
* poor memory for things they see
* good reading ability
* very poor arithmetic ability
* excellent verbal expression and verbal reasoning
* problems with written expression (often because of poor handwriting)
* problems with sense of direction, estimation of size, shape, distance
* problems reading facial expressions, gestures, social cues, tones of voice



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30 Aug 2018, 12:04 pm

Maybe I have rather broader NVLD phenotype than nonverbal learning disability? I once (or maybe somewhat more often) read about it.

My pre-morbid IQ was estimated as 129 (almost gifted), I think that it was my estimated FSIQ.

The NLD boy from my earlier posts scored slightly higher in Object Assembly (8) than in Arithmetic (7). Object Assembly is in PIQ, Arithmetic is in VIQ.
He scored 15 "large" points higher in Vocabulary than in Block Design. The difference is very large, about 5 SDs. Vocabulary at the gifted borderline, Block Design (and Coding (2), 14 points lower than Vocabulary) in intellectual disability range. I had only slightly better result in Object Assembly (9) than he (8), who has PIQ in the borderline of mild intellectual disability range.
I scored 5 "large" points better in Block Design (14) than in Object Assembly (9) and Picture Completion (9). It is about 1,67 SD. I also scored significantly higher in Coding (13) than in OA or PC (the difference was 4 "large" points).



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13 Sep 2018, 3:06 pm

I scored 8 "large" points higher in Information (17) than in Object Assembly (9) in IQ test. It is about 2,67 SD, equivalent to 40 points difference in IQ. I do not know if processing speed was in my results.

I think that pure NVLD is (or at least can be) a pervasive developmental disorder, even without very intense and prevalent special interests and profound social difficulties. I suppose that pure NVLD may be not similar to ASD. NVLD might be renamed as "spatial learning disability". I think that my special interests are not so prevalent and very intense, my social probelms may be not profound... So it looks that I may have NVLD WITHOUT AS. I think that my condition is not genetic, but is a result of prenatal insults (quite marked asymmetric hypotrophy, low birth weight). But I received PDD diagnosis, not LD. I was diagnosed nearly 10 years ago in specialistic centre.

Now my special interests are mental disorders similar to mine and my coincidences. Geography, weather statistics, chemistry, religion are another my interests. I have varied special interests and I do not think that they are inflexible.



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14 Sep 2018, 3:58 pm

Hypercoaster wrote:
I have both NVLD and Asperger's. I know NVLD isn't an "official" diagnosis in the DSM-5. Not sure about ICD-10, but I think you're right that it's not an official diagnosis in there, either. So, the main criterion for NVLD is that an individual has a 15+ point difference between a person's Verbal IQ (VIQ) and Performance IQ (PIQ). In other words, a person's VIQ is significantly higher than their PIQ. For example, I showed a 17-point difference between my VIQ and PIQ. Even more telling, I had a 35-point difference between my Vocabulary subscore and my Perceptual Differences subscore. The neuropsychologist who administered my IQ test told me that this equated to an NVLD diagnosis, IF it existed. Since it didn't/doesn't, my technical diagnosis is "learning disorder NOS."

With me at least, the NVLD really only comes into play with my visual-spatial/math deficits. Otherwise, I just say I have Asperger's. There isn't all that much research in those who have NVLD without being on the spectrum. There are a ton of commonalities between the two, but from what I've read, pure NVLD doesn't really include true special interests (Asperger's/ASD special interests are much more intense and prevalent), and the social difficulties aren't as profound. So, in conclusion, just because you think you may have NVLD, you can certainly also be on the spectrum. If you've already received an official ASD diagnosis, then really all you'd need to do to see if you have NVLD is take an official IQ test.

I think that NVLD is possible without larger VIQ>PIQ gap, even with higher PIQ than VIQ (for example due to auditory processing disorder (APD) co-morbid with NVLD).

I consider all developmental conditions characterised by social inadequacy and peculiarity as members of one subgroup of (neuro)developmental disorders. ASD does not have "monopoly" for it. Every aucorigia (developmental disorder with social ineptitude and oddity) may be very destructive for occupational career.

Social communication disorder is another example of condition which can make an individual socially inept and "odd". It is currently not placed in one category with ASD, I think that it is unfair. People with NVLD and SCD should have help in life too, they also may require support!