Page 1 of 2 [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Roselove
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 1 May 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 9
Location: Texas

11 Feb 2018, 6:19 am

I've been confused about the theory of mind stuff.
I'm not sure if I'm experiencing it, or not. I'm diagnosed with Aspergers, but I don't think I have the TOM, problem.
The only thing that I can think of, that might be TOM issues is, I project my own feelings, on others. If I feel interested in someone, I will think they're interested in me (even if we have hardly even looked at each other) or I will assume that they are thinking a thought, when I have no reason to think they are thinking that. I feel kind of delusional, really. Is that perhaps, how I'm experiencing TOM problems? Basically, if I'm feeling or thinking something, I assume the other person is, too. Kinda feels like paranoia?

Edit: I also frequently assume that people are thinking something bad about me, if I'm feeling self conscious. Sometimes I will believe they are thinking exactly what I'm worried that they're thinking, too.



Last edited by Roselove on 11 Feb 2018, 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

rowan_nichol
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Age: 60
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 769
Location: England

11 Feb 2018, 6:48 am

This seems similar to what I do from time to time. It is an assumption that someone else's thoughts etc are more like ones own than is actually the case except on rare occasions.



SaveFerris
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Sep 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,762
Location: UK

11 Feb 2018, 7:26 am

Roselove wrote:

Edit: I also frequently assume that people are thinking something bad about me, if I'm feeling self conscious. Sometimes I will believe they are thinking exactly what I'm worried that they're thinking, too.


I don't know enough about TOM to comment but this sounds like anxiety ^^


_________________
R Tape loading error, 0:1

Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury. Raise the double standard


fluffysaurus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,723
Location: England

11 Feb 2018, 8:32 am

I don't remember, or possibly I didn't understand, what was meant by Theory of Mind in my assessment. I bulked at it because, seriously, my mind has lots of theories. The explanation I received sounded nothing like something that should be titled Theory of Mind, and that's all I remember.



Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 26,492
Location: UK

11 Feb 2018, 9:57 am

I think NTs are severe when it comes to assuming people are thinking what they're thinking. Or, to explain it more clearly, they think that just because they can hear something it means everybody else can. For example, one time I laughed (not loud, just casually) at something funny my boyfriend said, and he was like "sshh, the window's open! People will hear you!" I don't know why it matters if somebody hears you laugh, and anyway, outside his window is a rather large garden, and so the public footpath is beyond the garden behind trees and bushes and there's loud traffic roaring by, so unless you're yelling right by an open window, people walking by can't hear what you're doing in your house. Just because we can hear me laugh casually in the kitchen, doesn't mean the whole street can.


_________________
Female


SplendidSnail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2017
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 887
Location: Canada

11 Feb 2018, 12:24 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
I don't remember, or possibly I didn't understand, what was meant by Theory of Mind in my assessment. I bulked at it because, seriously, my mind has lots of theories. The explanation I received sounded nothing like something that should be titled Theory of Mind, and that's all I remember.

My understanding of it is the ability to see things from someone else's perspective, also known as Cognitive Empathy. Honestly though, "Theory of Mind" really doesn't seem to me like a very good term for it.

I'm guessing it's "Theory of Mind" because your mind is "Theorizing" what it would be thinking if your circumstances were the same as someone else's. The classic Sally Anne test example is that when Sally is outside of the room, Anne moves the marble from the basket to the box. Theory of Mind allows your mind to "Theorize" what Sally is thinking (that the marble is still in the basket), even though we know that the marble is now in the box.

The Sally Anne test is the most basic level of Theory of Mind, and even among those with ASD, most people who are not young children can pass by substituting logic for Theory of Mind. The test can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4.

I've never heard the term "Fact of Mind" before, but I'm going to define it to be the opposite of TOM: what you yourself are thinking at any given time. Theory of Mind allows you to "Theorize" about other people's Facts of Mind.

In my case, I think that one way a Theory of Mind deficit manifests in me is that, if I'm in a situation where someone is sad and needs to be comforted, I never seem to have the slightest idea what to do. I stand around being awkward, of no use whatsoever.

Did I make it less confusing or more confusing?


_________________
Level 1 Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome.


SplendidSnail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2017
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 887
Location: Canada

11 Feb 2018, 12:30 pm

Roselove wrote:
The only thing that I can think of, that might be TOM issues is, I project my own feelings, on others. If I feel interested in someone, I will think they're interested in me (even if we have hardly even looked at each other) or I will assume that they are thinking a thought, when I have no reason to think they are thinking that.

I'm no expert, but while I don't think that's the way everyone with ASD operates, this actually does seem like it could be related to Theory of Mind. You can't easily imagine what other people are thinking, so you assume they are thinking the same way as you.

In fact, I'd actually say it's quite similar to the Sally Anne test (see the post just above). The person being tested has trouble theorizing what Sally is thinking, so he or she makes the incorrect assumption (just like you) that Sally is thinking the same as him or her: that the marble is in the box. Sally is actually thinking that the marble is in the basket.


_________________
Level 1 Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome.


fluffysaurus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,723
Location: England

11 Feb 2018, 1:36 pm

SplendidSnail wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
I don't remember, or possibly I didn't understand, what was meant by Theory of Mind in my assessment. I bulked at it because, seriously, my mind has lots of theories. The explanation I received sounded nothing like something that should be titled Theory of Mind, and that's all I remember.

My understanding of it is the ability to see things from someone else's perspective, also known as Cognitive Empathy. Honestly though, "Theory of Mind" really doesn't seem to me like a very good term for it.

I'm guessing it's "Theory of Mind" because your mind is "Theorizing" what it would be thinking if your circumstances were the same as someone else's. The classic Sally Anne test example is that when Sally is outside of the room, Anne moves the marble from the basket to the box. Theory of Mind allows your mind to "Theorize" what Sally is thinking (that the marble is still in the basket), even though we know that the marble is now in the box.

The Sally Anne test is the most basic level of Theory of Mind, and even among those with ASD, most people who are not young children can pass by substituting logic for Theory of Mind. The test can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4.

I've never heard the term "Fact of Mind" before, but I'm going to define it to be the opposite of TOM: what you yourself are thinking at any given time. Theory of Mind allows you to "Theorize" about other people's Facts of Mind.

In my case, I think that one way a Theory of Mind deficit manifests in me is that, if I'm in a situation where someone is sad and needs to be comforted, I never seem to have the slightest idea what to do. I stand around being awkward, of no use whatsoever.

Did I make it less confusing or more confusing?

Much less confusing, thank you.

I do have Theory of Mind, my problem is it's always wrong. I think about how I would feel in that situation but other people feel differently about things to how I feel. If I am trying something on in a shop, and I look hideous in it, I do not want someone with me to lie and pretend I look good because I would be wasting my money :( but experience has taught me that other women do not feel the same way. Perhaps everyone has Theory of Mind as long as they are using it on someone who thinks and feels as they do. NT's must be just as unable to use Theory of Mind on me without wrongly assuming that I would feel just as they do about something otherwise when I have social exhaustion they would leave me alone.

I never know what to do when someone is upset either, but this is not because I can't imagine feeling like that, it's because what I would want when I'm upset and what someone else want's are unlikely to be the same.



Roselove
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 1 May 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 9
Location: Texas

11 Feb 2018, 2:22 pm

SplendidSnail wrote:
Roselove wrote:
The only thing that I can think of, that might be TOM issues is, I project my own feelings, on others. If I feel interested in someone, I will think they're interested in me (even if we have hardly even looked at each other) or I will assume that they are thinking a thought, when I have no reason to think they are thinking that.

I'm no expert, but while I don't think that's the way everyone with ASD operates, this actually does seem like it could be related to Theory of Mind. You can't easily imagine what other people are thinking, so you assume they are thinking the same way as you.

In fact, I'd actually say it's quite similar to the Sally Anne test (see the post just above). The person being tested has trouble theorizing what Sally is thinking, so he or she makes the incorrect assumption (just like you) that Sally is thinking the same as him or her: that the marble is in the box. Sally is actually thinking that the marble is in the basket.


This makes sense to me! I think maybe, I find it overwhelming to have my own strong, thoughts and feelings while trying to also understand, theirs. Maybe my mind is trying to simplify things?
I think I experience the black and white thinking, it is easier, but it can also be harmful. It has taken my mom and husband pointing out to me, when I am perceiving someone else's reaction, in an unusual way. I project my insecurities
or strong emotions, on others. My Dad was the same way, he thought everyone was being rude and hateful towards him, but everyone else could clearly see, that wasn't the case.
Do any of you know what I mean? :?

Edit: I think my way of thinking has a root in the fact that I grew up believing that everyone thought terrible things about me and it hurt very much, I think I put good thoughts about me in people's minds, in my head, as a way of coping with the fear that they have hate or disgust towards me. I think it's a, preservation thing. And then of course, like my edit in tge first post, I still go the opposite direction with it, as well.



SplendidSnail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2017
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 887
Location: Canada

11 Feb 2018, 2:48 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
I never know what to do when someone is upset either, but this is not because I can't imagine feeling like that, it's because what I would want when I'm upset and what someone else want's are unlikely to be the same.

I'd call that a theory of mind issue too: you're making the assumption (correct or incorrect) that what the other person needs is the same thing as you would need in the same situation.
:wink:


_________________
Level 1 Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome.


fluffysaurus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,723
Location: England

11 Feb 2018, 3:00 pm

SplendidSnail wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
I never know what to do when someone is upset either, but this is not because I can't imagine feeling like that, it's because what I would want when I'm upset and what someone else want's are unlikely to be the same.

I'd call that a theory of mind issue too: you're making the assumption (correct or incorrect) that what the other person needs is the same thing as you would need in the same situation.
:wink:
Yes, but don't NT's do the same thing. They are only right more often because most people are like them.



SplendidSnail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2017
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 887
Location: Canada

11 Feb 2018, 3:46 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
SplendidSnail wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
I never know what to do when someone is upset either, but this is not because I can't imagine feeling like that, it's because what I would want when I'm upset and what someone else want's are unlikely to be the same.

I'd call that a theory of mind issue too: you're making the assumption (correct or incorrect) that what the other person needs is the same thing as you would need in the same situation.
:wink:
Yes, but don't NT's do the same thing. They are only right more often because most people are like them.

Probably to some degree. I think NTs have some kind of instinctual ability to, based on what they know about the person, somehow predict when what the person needs will be different from what he or should would need. They get it wrong sometimes too, but probably less than us.

I think we can learn to do that to a certain degree as well, but it would be just that - a learned skill, not something instinctual. It probably takes more conscious thought for us as well unless we've had lots of practice.


_________________
Level 1 Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome.


starcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2017
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 531

11 Feb 2018, 9:37 pm

Something that always confuses me is if lack of theory of mind is such a defining trait of ASD, how does it relate to the idea of over developed local synaptic connections and under developed long range ones?

I was thinking that as I read this thread, maybe this answers it?

Roselove wrote:
I think maybe, I find it overwhelming to have my own strong, thoughts and feelings while trying to also understand, theirs. Maybe my mind is trying to simplify things?


Does anyone else know or have a guess how those two things could relate?



Roselove
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 1 May 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 9
Location: Texas

12 Feb 2018, 12:52 pm

starcats wrote:
Something that always confuses me is if lack of theory of mind is such a defining trait of ASD, how does it relate to the idea of over developed local synaptic connections and under developed long range ones?

I was thinking that as I read this thread, maybe this answers it?
Roselove wrote:
I think maybe, I find it overwhelming to have my own strong, thoughts and feelings while trying to also understand, theirs. Maybe my mind is trying to simplify things?


Does anyone else know or have a guess how those two things could relate?


That is an interesting thought, I would like to know more, too!



fruitloop42
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 65

12 Feb 2018, 2:01 pm

SplendidSnail wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
In my case, I think that one way a Theory of Mind deficit manifests in me is that, if I'm in a situation where someone is sad and needs to be comforted, I never seem to have the slightest idea what to do. I stand around being awkward, of no use whatsoever.


Oh this makes sense. I am also like this. Another feeling awkward situation for me is being around children because I don't know what to do with them or how to relate, it makes me really self conscious. Which is annoying because it isn't that I don't like children, I just don't know what to do.

I think most people project their feelings and perspective onto other people though. At least it seems that way to me.



SplendidSnail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2017
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 887
Location: Canada

12 Feb 2018, 3:04 pm

fruitloop42 wrote:
Another feeling awkward situation for me is being around children because I don't know what to do with them or how to relate, it makes me really self conscious. Which is annoying because it isn't that I don't like children, I just don't know what to do.

Personally, I am usually better around kids than around grown ups because kids don't usually want to do things like small talk or make general conversation - they just want to play games. That said, I have had quite a bit of practice with kids over the years. I don't think I'm actually relating to them - it's more like I've learned a script on how to deal with them. I can certainly see how being around kids would be difficult for someone who hasn't learned the script.

On the phone, however, it's reversed. I find it much harder to talk to kids on the phone than grown ups, probably because they'll probably be as bad at conversing as I am.


_________________
Level 1 Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome.