Would social democracy make affirmative action irrelevant?

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13 Feb 2018, 1:40 pm

Hi all. This will be another thread in which I criticize the left a bit. Let's talk about affirmative action.

I totally understand why affirmative action exists. Some women and minorities are dirt poor and that sucks.

Here's the thing: What if America had a proper social safety net? Would affirmative action still be necessary?

Democratic socialism is when you take care of the poor, regardless of sex and race, using funds taken from the upper class. Affirmative action is when you help poor women and minorities by favoring them above white males in the middle and lower classes. Thus, affirmative action lets the upper class off the hook and creates racial/sexual tension within the middle and lower classes that could easily be avoided.

I have a similar attitude towards reparations, child support and decolonisation. Yes, deadbeat dads suck. Do you know who sucks more? Billionaire CEOs. All of this he-said-she-said over child support could be avoided with a proper social safety net.

Yes, there is a gender pay gap and a racial pay gap. The class pay gap is far more vast. The Koch brothers often make a million dollars per day. I'll never make that sort of money, no matter how hard I work.

I'm not saying that identity politics is completely irrelevant. Social democracy won't automatically make every racial and sexual issue vanish. For example, social democracy won't immediately erase the very real issue of police racism ... but it will make all of the financial issues surrounding race and sex irrelevant.

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Pepe
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13 Feb 2018, 2:26 pm

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Affirmative action, also known as reservation in India and Nepal, positive action in the UK, and employment equity (in a narrower context) in Canada and South Africa, is the policy protecting members of a disadvantaged group who suffer or have suffered from discrimination within a culture.[1][2][3][4] Historically and internationally, support for affirmative action has sought to achieve goals such as bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, promoting diversity, and redressing apparent past wrongs, harms, or hindrances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

Quote:

The social safety net is a collection of services provided by the state or other institutions such as friendly societies. It includes welfare, unemployment benefit, universal healthcare, homeless shelters, and sometimes subsidized services such as public transport, which prevent individuals from falling into poverty beyond a certain level.

A practical example of how the safety net works would be a single mother with several children, unable to work.[citation needed] By receiving money from the government to support her children, along with universal health care and free education, she can give her children a better chance at becoming successful members of society, rather than be caught up in the hopelessness of extreme poverty.[citation needed]

Comparisons of systems are endless, and among the most common are the ones between Canada and the United States, due to their proximity.[citation needed] Supporters of a strong social safety net argue that these programs have resulted in a much lower crime rate and general lower poverty levels in Canadian cities, and this benefits everyone.[citation needed] Critics argue that the taxes required to support the safety net inhibit growth and actually increase the barriers for socio-economic advancement, and that the safety net itself creates a perverse incentive to be unproductive and poor.[citation needed].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_safety_net

Quote:

Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production[1] with an emphasis on self-management or democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist or decentralized socialist planned economy.[2]

Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the democratic values of liberty, equality, and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.[3]

The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with “socialism,” but the adjective “democratic” is sometimes used to distinguish democratic socialists from Marxist–Leninist inspired socialism which is viewed as being non-democratic in practice.[4][5] Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and Soviet economic model, rejecting the authoritarian form of governance and highly centralized command economy that took form in the Soviet Union in the early 20th century.[6]

Democratic socialism is distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.[7] In contrast to social democrats, democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and state interventions aimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only see them emerge elsewhere in a different guise. As socialists, democratic socialists believe that the systemic issues of capitalism can only be solved by replacing the capitalist system with a socialist system; by replacing private ownership with social ownership of the means of production.[3][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Quote:

Identity politics, also called identitarian politics,[2] refers to political positions based on the interests and perspectives of social groups with which people identify. Identity politics includes the ways in which people's politics are shaped by aspects of their identity through loosely correlated social organizations. Examples include social organizations based on age, religion, social class or caste, culture, dialect, disability, education, ethnicity, language, nationality, sex, gender identity, generation, occupation, profession, race, political party affiliation, sexual orientation, settlement, urban and rural habitation, and veteran status. Not all members of any given group are involved in identity politics. Identity politics are used by minority and civil rights organizations to form a coalition with members of the majority.

The term identity politics came into being during the latter part of the 20th century, especially the African-American Civil Rights Era.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Sweetleaf
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13 Feb 2018, 2:29 pm

I think it would, as it would help to remove some of the barriers and things that make things like affirmative action necessary in the first place.

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Pepe
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13 Feb 2018, 2:33 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/maimonides_326751

kraftiekortie
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13 Feb 2018, 2:48 pm

Truthfully, I believe "affirmative action" makes "minorities" look bad. "Minorities" themselves have told me this.

I feel it's just about time to dispense with "affirmative action." I'm not sure if it's time to completely get rid of it, though.

Why not replace it with more scholarships based on "need?"

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13 Feb 2018, 3:02 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Truthfully, I believe "affirmative action" makes "minorities" look bad. "Minorities" themselves have told me this.

I feel it's just about time to dispense with "affirmative action." Why not replace it with more scholarships based on "need?"

But between "affirmative action" and a broader "social safety net", which is the more positive approach, in theory at least?

"Affirmative action" encourages/focuses-on self-development, opens up opportunities for the individual to exploit...
"A strengthened social safety net" would encourage some to adopt the communist attitude of letting others work so they can have a comfortable life...

There are no perfect solutions, but on the surface, using this simplistic model, supporting an attitude of self-determination, personal independence and lack of dependency would encourage a healthier mindset, to my way of thinking...

Daniel89
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13 Feb 2018, 3:21 pm

Why is it the fault of the rich that the poor choose to have children they cannot afford? Corruption can make people poor but the vast majority of people are poor because their parents were poor and chose to have kids they couldn't provide for.

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13 Feb 2018, 3:22 pm

Pepe wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Truthfully, I believe "affirmative action" makes "minorities" look bad. "Minorities" themselves have told me this.

I feel it's just about time to dispense with "affirmative action." Why not replace it with more scholarships based on "need?"

That isn't the communist attitude, the attitude is everyone works/contributes so that everyone can have a comfortable life. I mean ok might have been the soviet russia under Stalin attitude, but that doesn't really encompass the over-all idea.

Also though I have been on SSI due to disability for a few years now, and if it wasn't for getting financial help I wouldn't have been able to afford treatment to help my issues and improve so I would be capable of earning for myself. I think I have improved a lot and am ready to start working towards getting off SSI by making my own income...but if it wasn't for things like SSI and Medicaid not sure that would be the case.

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13 Feb 2018, 3:46 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I think it would, as it would help to remove some of the barriers and things that make things like affirmative action necessary in the first place.

Note to Feminists: Sweetleaf is female. This proves I'm not sexist. Checkmate.

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13 Feb 2018, 3:50 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Perhaps we should introduce social democracy and then discard affirmative action.

Alienating the far-left early on might not be a good idea. It will be safe to alienate the SJW left once the Nordic economic model has already been established.

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Pepe
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13 Feb 2018, 3:50 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

Decades ago, a learned man pointed out to me that, statistically speak, those with a lesser intellectual intelligence tended to produce more children...
I have no reason to doubt what he said...

In some cultures, there was the attitude of producing a "disposable" family work force to ensure there was someone to look after them in old age...
It was expected that some of this "work force" would perish through disease and hunger...to a large extent as a result of having too many mouths to feed in the first place... :roll:

And the cycle would continue...
Talk about a meme that needed to be eradicated...

Education is a major factor in social distress...
But the larger social issue seems to involve drugs/alcohol...
While education would help, how does one completely win the battle of humanity's inherent self-destructive tendencies?

But yes, the bottom line is: Why should others be responsible for someone else's poor decisions?

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13 Feb 2018, 3:51 pm

Pepe wrote:

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Quote:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/maimonides_326751

Good idea! Let's teach a man to fish ... by making post-secondary education free!

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DarthMetaKnight
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13 Feb 2018, 3:57 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

Should poor children be abandoned by society just because their parents were irresponsible?

Another Thing: The poor will fewer kids if abortion is legal and sex education is taught in public schools. Are you in favor of those things?

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13 Feb 2018, 4:01 pm

Pepe wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

Why should it be assumed that if someone is in poverty its solely due to 'poor decisions', that is like the myth that wealthy people all worked hard to get where they are. That said though don't think anyone is saying others should be responsible for someone elses poor decisions...per say.

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13 Feb 2018, 4:04 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

I do find it a little bit funny that some right wing proponants of pro-life will complain of poor people having too many children they cant take care of, yet they want to ban a procedure that helps prevent this? and then cut any social safety network to help these offspring of 'irresponsible poor people' that shouldn't have had kids?

Just not sure how that is supposed to work. If I get pregnant I want an abortion, because I cannot afford to take care of a baby let alone hospital treatment to actually give birth safely...well and I just don't want a kid.

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13 Feb 2018, 4:11 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I understand the basic principles of communism...
But history has convincingly shown, to me at least, that it is a failed philosophy due primarily to the egocentricity of humanity...
Yes, I was cheeky in saying what I said, but as I said, the evidence is, there are many more self-serving individuals than those with altruistic ideals...

Sweetleaf wrote:

Also though I have been on SSI due to disability for a few years now, and if it wasn't for getting financial help I wouldn't have been able to afford treatment to help my issues and improve so I would be capable of earning for myself. I think I have improved a lot and am ready to start working towards getting off SSI by making my own income...but if it wasn't for things like SSI and Medicaid not sure that would be the case.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules, and no "tea cup" philosophising can hope to encompass the complexity of the subject, but we can, when discussing broad principles, legitimately engage in some degree of reductionism, or we would be engulfed in philosophical minutia and end up with no resolution whatsoever...
I.E. What usually happens... :mrgreen:

Damn!
This thread is on fire!
Good work, DMK... :mrgreen:

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