Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Ayn Rand - Love is Selfish

Page 1 of 4 [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

15 Feb 2018, 11:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


Could you define what you mean by "self-sacrifice"?
Could you give examples?



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

16 Feb 2018, 1:50 am

The false emotionalism/rationalism dichotomy is boring. They are not conflicting forces in the human experience, they both contribute equally to how we think and how we interpret the world, and they are each as legitimate as the other. Emotionalism and Rationalism together create a more accurate picture of the world in one's mind than either can do alone.

Psychopaths endorse giving up on emotional thinking because they can't follow it, so they label it a weakness and they view emotion with contempt. I have trouble trusting people who present emotionalism as a problem because I don't understand the "logic" of rejecting our emotional selves any more than I could trust someone who encouraged me to abandon my ability to reason.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

16 Feb 2018, 3:59 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Idolizing a violent psychopath and viewing that kind of behaviour as ideal is objectively stupid and self-destructive.

A society full of violent psychopaths and solipsists would collapse into chaos. My discounting of a person's view on ethics and morality because they idolize a violent psychopath as the right way to be in the world is not an emotional reaction to her ideas, it's a logical conclusion that such a person has twisted views that aren't worth much consideration. There are many other people out there writing and sharing ideas on the philosophical topics I'm interested in that don't promote the violent psychopath as the ideal person we should all aim to be like.

I will spend my time examining their ideas rather than wasting my time on someone like Rand.


Settle petal....
No body is forcing you to investigate Rand's philosophies...
And some people might start to think you have problems with this thread...



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,795
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

16 Feb 2018, 11:23 am

Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


Could you define what you mean by "self-sacrifice"?
Could you give examples?


When you give up something for your spouse or beloved, or your child, whether it's just food, or if it's a kidney, or even if it's a matter of giving your life.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

16 Feb 2018, 11:33 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


Could you define what you mean by "self-sacrifice"?
Could you give examples?


When you give up something for your spouse or beloved, or your child, whether it's just food, or if it's a kidney, or even if it's a matter of giving your life.


But she covered that in the pod cast...
You do those things because those people are important to you...
You gain something emotionally...

In this context, being selfish isn't a bad thing...
It is simply being honest...
Just be honest with yourself so we can all go home and have a good sleep... :mrgreen:



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

16 Feb 2018, 12:46 pm

Pepe wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Idolizing a violent psychopath and viewing that kind of behaviour as ideal is objectively stupid and self-destructive.

A society full of violent psychopaths and solipsists would collapse into chaos. My discounting of a person's view on ethics and morality because they idolize a violent psychopath as the right way to be in the world is not an emotional reaction to her ideas, it's a logical conclusion that such a person has twisted views that aren't worth much consideration. There are many other people out there writing and sharing ideas on the philosophical topics I'm interested in that don't promote the violent psychopath as the ideal person we should all aim to be like.

I will spend my time examining their ideas rather than wasting my time on someone like Rand.


Settle petal....
No body is forcing you to investigate Rand's philosophies...
And some people might start to think you have problems with this thread...


That is a common gaslighting technique. It's what I expected. Enjoy your exploration of Rand's "ideas".



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

16 Feb 2018, 4:01 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

That is a common gaslighting technique. It's what I expected. Enjoy your exploration of Rand's "ideas".


Thank you... :wink:



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

16 Feb 2018, 4:58 pm

Pepe wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

That is a common gaslighting technique. It's what I expected. Enjoy your exploration of Rand's "ideas".


Thank you... :wink:


But of course. After all, you're just asking questions, right Pepe? :wink:

Honestly, I am surprised you didn't just outright call me hysterical. Thanks for at least being a little more subtle than most and not insulting my intelligence.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

16 Feb 2018, 7:29 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Pepe wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

That is a common gaslighting technique. It's what I expected. Enjoy your exploration of Rand's "ideas".


Thank you... :wink:


But of course. After all, you're just asking questions, right Pepe? :wink:

Honestly, I am surprised you didn't just outright call me hysterical. Thanks for at least being a little more subtle than most and not insulting my intelligence.


I aspire towards being a true objective rationalist...
And a searcher of Objective Truth...

If you were "hysterical", not saying you were, how does that affect my personal quest for Truth?
If I were being misrepresented, I would simply point that out without the need of emotionalism...
Why would one do anything else? <shrug>

I may disagree with someone else's philosophy but it is not my job to interfere with the freedom of thought of other people...
And I am not responsible for your self actualisation...
That is up to you...

You are entitled to your opinions...
Simples...<shrug> :wink:

P.S.
I gather you think my contributions here are motivated by a desire to influence other people to validate my existential existence...
Nope... :wink:



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

16 Feb 2018, 7:59 pm

I'm sure your intentions here are to just ask questions, just a guy named Pepe asking questions, like I said.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,795
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

16 Feb 2018, 11:09 pm

Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


Could you define what you mean by "self-sacrifice"?
Could you give examples?


When you give up something for your spouse or beloved, or your child, whether it's just food, or if it's a kidney, or even if it's a matter of giving your life.


But she covered that in the pod cast...
You do those things because those people are important to you...
You gain something emotionally...

In this context, being selfish isn't a bad thing...
It is simply being honest...
Just be honest with yourself so we can all go home and have a good sleep... :mrgreen:


Even if you lose something significant for that loved one?
I think human emotions were alien to Rand.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


billegge
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Lat: 27.889636 Long: -82.665982

17 Feb 2018, 11:03 am

Ayn Rand makes sense to me.



billegge
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Lat: 27.889636 Long: -82.665982

17 Feb 2018, 11:06 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't care for "enlightened self interest." It gives people an excuse not to help others.


Take a deeper look into what you mean by excuse.



billegge
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Lat: 27.889636 Long: -82.665982

17 Feb 2018, 11:15 am

Some of these arguments against Ayn Rand are contradictory to Ayn Rands philosophy. Maybe they are interpreting Ayn Rand through the lens of another philosophy.



billegge
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Lat: 27.889636 Long: -82.665982

17 Feb 2018, 11:19 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
I read somewhere that her idea of the "perfect man" was a convicted child murderer. He literally took what he wanted from the world with no thought for morality or human compassion, and that's what she looked up to. That says all I need to know about her personal philosophy and where it stems from.

https://www.alternet.org/books/how-ayn- ... ial-killer


So what you are saying is that you did not base your opinion on the writings of Ayn Rand using your independent judgment but instead the unquestionable opinion of another.



billegge
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Lat: 27.889636 Long: -82.665982

17 Feb 2018, 11:25 am

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
Good quote. Her philosophy in a nutshell: "I've got mine, so now I'm taking yours, which makes me a superior being."
Quite the charmer.


Your statement contradicts an objectivist principle of "mutual benefit".