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Pepe
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15 Feb 2018, 5:22 am

Ayn Rand - Love is Selfish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2u193L-EME
This podcast is only 6minutes and 19 seconds long...

Ayn Rand:
-Love and friendship are profoundly personal and selfish values...
-Love is an expression and assertion of self-esteem...
-One gains a profoundly selfish joy from the mere existence of the person one loves...
It is one's own personal happiness one seeks earns and derives from love...
-The objectivist's ethics would tell you the highest moral purpose is the achievement of your own happiness...



kraftiekortie
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15 Feb 2018, 11:04 am

I don't care for "enlightened self interest." It gives people an excuse not to help others.



Esmerelda Weatherwax
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15 Feb 2018, 11:39 am

The lady was a fraud, a charlatan, a con artist.

She cheated enthusiastically on her poor husband for most if not all of their married life (just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel ... sonal_life ), and despite her heroic protestations against government handouts, she collected Social Security in her old age
( https://www.snopes.com/ayn-rand-social-security/ )

She did more to damage civility and decency in this country than any other woman in US history. Hopefully she is still crackling merrily in Hell, alongside similar monsters.


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Syd
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15 Feb 2018, 11:47 am

Ayn Rand's opinion of "savages" (Native Americans):

"What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."



redrobin62
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15 Feb 2018, 11:58 am

Wow. If what everyone has said on here is true, it sure shows me a different aspect of someone I used to admire. I was introduced to her through the writings of Rush drummer Neil Peart. Eventually, I read The Fountainhead and Anthem and came to see Ayn Rand as a true visionary. I had no idea about her racist, hypocritical behaviours, though. New one on me.



Esmerelda Weatherwax
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15 Feb 2018, 12:03 pm

Syd wrote:
Ayn Rand's opinion of "savages" (Native Americans):

"What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."


Good quote. Her philosophy in a nutshell: "I've got mine, so now I'm taking yours, which makes me a superior being."

One can also see her implied definition of higher civilization as "the most efficient version of human-on-human predation in the room".

Quite the charmer.


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Aspiegaming
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15 Feb 2018, 1:21 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
Syd wrote:
Ayn Rand's opinion of "savages" (Native Americans):

"What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."


Good quote. Her philosophy in a nutshell: "I've got mine, so now I'm taking yours, which makes me a superior being.

My Philosphy: "You've got yours. This is mine. Take it away and I'll rip your limbs off one by one with my bare hands until I get it back."

I hate Ayn Rand.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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15 Feb 2018, 3:39 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
Syd wrote:
Ayn Rand's opinion of "savages" (Native Americans):

"What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."


Good quote. Her philosophy in a nutshell: "I've got mine, so now I'm taking yours, which makes me a superior being."

One can also see her implied definition of higher civilization as "the most efficient version of human-on-human predation in the room".

Quite the charmer.


I read somewhere that her idea of the "perfect man" was a convicted child murderer. He literally took what he wanted from the world with no thought for morality or human compassion, and that's what she looked up to. That says all I need to know about her personal philosophy and where it stems from.

https://www.alternet.org/books/how-ayn- ... ial-killer



Pepe
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15 Feb 2018, 4:49 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
Wow. If what everyone has said on here is true, it sure shows me a different aspect of someone I used to admire. I was introduced to her through the writings of Rush drummer Neil Peart. Eventually, I read The Fountainhead and Anthem and came to see Ayn Rand as a true visionary. I had no idea about her racist, hypocritical behaviours, though. New one on me.


Firstly, let me state that I am not defending Ayn Rand...
If people think I am, "they are sadly mistaken" and have simply jumped to conclusions...
I am in the process of discovering her...

Now to business<rub hands together>
People, in general, have an enormous propensity towards polarisation...
There seems to be a tendency to see things in black and white terms...
I.E. The psychological phenomenon of confirmation bias...
Personally, I see life, the universe and everything more in terms of 50 shades of grey, or more...

I have often been surprised at how easy it is for so many people to embrace confirmation bias, particularly in regards to emotionalistic subject matter...

I remember having a discussion many years ago where I inadvertently used a reference from a neo-Nazi website to support an argument of mine...
I innocently Googled and found something...
Nothing sinister there, right?

When it was pointed out where the information came from, I was firstly surprised and felt some discomfort...
I then engaged my reasoning skills and realised that despite the questionable origin of the information, logically it didn't invalidate the information at hand on that basis alone...
I further reasoned that, yes, the credibility of the source did somewhat lessen the credibility of the information presented...
I then decided to continue my quest in getting to the truth of the matter by researching other sources of information from more reputable origins...
As it happened, sites that had credibility also supported the articles found on the questionable web site...

My point:
While the credibility of the source is extremely important in the search for the truth, it was irrational and emotionalistic to simply dismiss what is presented because you don't like where the information is coming from...
A more rational approach would be to analyse what is being said, source other areas of commentary, use your own personal life wisdom, be aware of your own personal bias' and then do the hokey pokey and shake it all about...
*That's* what it's all about... :mrgreen:

There is also a propensity of thought that encourages people to: "Throw out the baby with the bathwater..."
Much simpler to discard the entire intellectual construct than to sift through the various elements of that construct...
And I won't mention the discredited policy of: "Playing the man and not the ball...:
Oh dear, I just did... :mrgreen:

While I am surprised at the degree of condemnation of Ayn Rand, I think it unfair to suggest that everything she considered valid was corrupt, hypocritical or discredited in its entirety...

Unfortunately, being politically correct often comes at odds with an objective, technical analysis of life, the universe and everything...
A truth may be inconvenient, but it is never politically incorrect...
Some seem to have difficulty processing this intellectual construct...

Just sayin... 8)



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15 Feb 2018, 5:17 pm

Syd wrote:
Ayn Rand's opinion of "savages" (Native Americans):

"What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."


We're seen as savages and yet we managed our resources sustainably for thousands and thousands of years. Civilization came to Canada in the form of cultural genocide. In just 150 years Canada has stripped resources so rapidly that nature just can't keep up or recover. Civilization? :roll:



Pepe
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15 Feb 2018, 5:25 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

I read somewhere that her idea of the "perfect man" was a convicted child murderer. He literally took what he wanted from the world with no thought for morality or human compassion, and that's what she looked up to. That says all I need to know about her personal philosophy and where it stems from.

https://www.alternet.org/books/how-ayn- ... ial-killer


What a powerful article...
The only issue I have with it is that he held himself back way too much... :mrgreen:

A pity she isn't around to defend her beliefs...
A very good article, like I said...
I need to source other...errr...sources to determine the veracity of the opinions/facts presented...
In itself, it is more than a little damning...



Kraichgauer
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15 Feb 2018, 6:35 pm

Pepe wrote:
Ayn Rand - Love is Selfish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2u193L-EME
This podcast is only 6minutes and 19 seconds long...

Ayn Rand:
-Love and friendship are profoundly personal and selfish values...
-Love is an expression and assertion of self-esteem...
-One gains a profoundly selfish joy from the mere existence of the person one loves...
It is one's own personal happiness one seeks earns and derives from love...
-The objectivist's ethics would tell you the highest moral purpose is the achievement of your own happiness...


Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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15 Feb 2018, 6:47 pm

Idolizing a violent psychopath and viewing that kind of behaviour as ideal is objectively stupid and self-destructive.

A society full of violent psychopaths and solipsists would collapse into chaos. My discounting of a person's view on ethics and morality because they idolize a violent psychopath as the right way to be in the world is not an emotional reaction to her ideas, it's a logical conclusion that such a person has twisted views that aren't worth much consideration. There are many other people out there writing and sharing ideas on the philosophical topics I'm interested in that don't promote the violent psychopath as the ideal person we should all aim to be like.

I will spend my time examining their ideas rather than wasting my time on someone like Rand.



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15 Feb 2018, 8:41 pm

ayn is a nutter, what else is there to say, really?


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Pepe
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15 Feb 2018, 10:56 pm

Kiprobalhato wrote:
ayn is a nutter, what else is there to say, really?


Well, it does inspire the question:
Why was she such an influential force in her time and beyond, nutter or not?

Before I get lynched, let me reiterate that I am not defending Ayn Rand...
I would simply like to understand what she had to say...and why so many people have a problem with her...
Also, I refuse to be intimidated by emotionalists into not thinking for myself, not that I am suggesting you are doing this...



Pepe
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15 Feb 2018, 11:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Love - true love - is also self sacrificing. That's the part Rand chose not to grasp.


Could you define what you mean by "self-sacrifice"?
Could you give examples?