13 Russian nationals indicted for meddling in 2016 election

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Kraichgauer
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20 Feb 2018, 2:45 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Reality check.



All this video is is a Trumpite justification of Russian interference in our elections.
And yes, there is a difference. During the Cold War, we believed we were in an existential struggle with a political system that had plotted to destroy us. At least today we can agree that the choices that were made were often wrong. Putin, on the other hand, aggressively wanted to stop his nemesis, Hillary Clinton, from becoming elected, because she had talked mean about him, preferring a compromised puppet like Trump. And with that compromised puppet, Putin is able to exact his revenge on America for humiliating Russia at the end of the Cold War.


Is this post a joke? The US plotted to destroy the Soviet Union, so don't start the story in the middle. Haha cool story. Like I said he is a terrible puppet then. None of this is about collusion. The only collusion that came from it was Flynn and Israel.


Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War. There isn't supposed to be such a relationship with Russia today.
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


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20 Feb 2018, 6:08 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War.


I don't think that the Soviet Union was trying to destroy America. They used the nukes as a deterrent, but they were not capable of conquering America and they knew it.


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Kraichgauer
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20 Feb 2018, 8:54 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War.


I don't think that the Soviet Union was trying to destroy America. They used the nukes as a deterrent, but they were not capable of conquering America and they knew it.


I don't mean literally destroy us with bombs, but to undermine our political and economic role in the world. Putin has turned out to be the old Soviet Union's avenger.


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auntblabby
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20 Feb 2018, 8:58 pm

funny how a party once known for anti-Sovietness now is all but boostering for the ruskies.



EzraS
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20 Feb 2018, 9:25 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.



EzraS
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20 Feb 2018, 9:37 pm

auntblabby wrote:
funny how a party once known for anti-Sovietness now is all but boostering for the ruskies.


Funny how a party once known for being pro-soviet is now saying non-soviet russia is america's nemesis, based mainly on its soviet past.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't mean literally destroy us with bombs, but to undermine our political and economic role in the world. Putin has turned out to be the old Soviet Union's avenger.


The thing is, america's economy has been improving.

This stuff you come up with about putin sounds like pure fantasy, not based on anything factual.

Has there ever been any kind of statement from putin to corroborate any of it? Any time in his 20 year history as russia's pm and president where he has ever expressed any such ill will towards the united states?



Kraichgauer
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20 Feb 2018, 11:10 pm

EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


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auntblabby
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20 Feb 2018, 11:16 pm

we need to pray for that man, that he survives.



goldfish21
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20 Feb 2018, 11:28 pm

:!:

JohnPowell wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Absolute farcical garbage. The 13 have no connections to Putin or the Trump campaign.
Some of the accusations is that they were promoting facts and sourcing sites like the Washington Post haha. You couldn't make this stuff up. Also, if Trump is a Russian puppet, he is a terrible one as US backed fighters have killed scores of Russians in Syria.


Oh, right, because neither leader would sacrifice his country's soldiers for his own personal gain..


How is Russian soldiers being killed Putin's gain? How is keeping sanctions on Russia Putin's gain?


It makes people like you believe he can’t possibly be pulling any strings..


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EzraS
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20 Feb 2018, 11:30 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.



EzraS
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20 Feb 2018, 11:36 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
:!:
JohnPowell wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Absolute farcical garbage. The 13 have no connections to Putin or the Trump campaign.
Some of the accusations is that they were promoting facts and sourcing sites like the Washington Post haha. You couldn't make this stuff up. Also, if Trump is a Russian puppet, he is a terrible one as US backed fighters have killed scores of Russians in Syria.


Oh, right, because neither leader would sacrifice his country's soldiers for his own personal gain..


How is Russian soldiers being killed Putin's gain? How is keeping sanctions on Russia Putin's gain?


It makes people like you believe he can’t possibly be pulling any strings..


Really it's people like you insisting putin is pulling trump's strings when there's evidence to the contrary. What counter evidence to you have that he is pulling strings?

When has putin ever expressed such sentiments against the united states?

What exactly has putin gained out of trump being president so far?



Last edited by EzraS on 20 Feb 2018, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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20 Feb 2018, 11:44 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


Mueller is only doing his job by conducting a criminal investigation, as there are legitimate questions. It's Trump and his supporters who are expressing consciousness of guilt by attacking Mueller.


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EzraS
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21 Feb 2018, 4:59 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Mueller is only doing his job by conducting a criminal investigation, as there are legitimate questions. It's Trump and his supporters who are expressing consciousness of guilt by attacking Mueller.


That's just a continuation of the liberal public rendering a judgement of guilty until proven innocent. Do they believe the American justice system decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed?



goldfish21
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21 Feb 2018, 5:02 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


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EzraS
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21 Feb 2018, 5:28 am

goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I'll take that as a yes. The justice system's decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed. And further more guilty based on no actual evedence. Is that really how you want the justice system to work?



Tollorin
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21 Feb 2018, 10:11 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mueller is only doing his job by conducting a criminal investigation, as there are legitimate questions. It's Trump and his supporters who are expressing consciousness of guilt by attacking Mueller.


That's just a continuation of the liberal public rendering a judgement of guilty until proven innocent. Do they believe the American justice system decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed?

Criminal investigations are there to find proofs of criminal activities, only then can peoples be judged and proven guilty in the eye of justice and law; public accusations and allegations are protected under the first amendment.
Anyway, republicans are Trump are very ill placed of accusing liberal rendering judgment of guilty until proven innocent, as they are accusing liberal, democrats, and particularly Obama and the Clinton of a lot of unproven things, which is not against the law, but is little compared to many conservatives been fine that "terrorist" been sent to jail or executed without proper trials.


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