13 Russian nationals indicted for meddling in 2016 election

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Tollorin
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21 Feb 2018, 10:11 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mueller is only doing his job by conducting a criminal investigation, as there are legitimate questions. It's Trump and his supporters who are expressing consciousness of guilt by attacking Mueller.


That's just a continuation of the liberal public rendering a judgement of guilty until proven innocent. Do they believe the American justice system decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed?

Criminal investigations are there to find proofs of criminal activities, only then can peoples be judged and proven guilty in the eye of justice and law; public accusations and allegations are protected under the first amendment.
Anyway, republicans are Trump are very ill placed of accusing liberal rendering judgment of guilty until proven innocent, as they are accusing liberal, democrats, and particularly Obama and the Clinton of a lot of unproven things, which is not against the law, but is little compared to many conservatives been fine that "terrorist" been sent to jail or executed without proper trials.


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EzraS
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21 Feb 2018, 11:00 am

Tollorin wrote:
Criminal investigations are there to find proofs of criminal activities, only then can peoples be judged and proven guilty in the eye of justice and law; public accusations and allegations are protected under the first amendment.


Just because a prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent is protected under the first amendment, doesn't make it a good thing, does it?

Tollorin wrote:
Anyway, republicans are Trump are very ill placed of accusing liberal rendering judgment of guilty until proven innocent, as they are accusing liberal, democrats, and particularly Obama and the Clinton of a lot of unproven things, which is not against the law.


In what way has the media and the public gone after them in the same manner so relentlessly?

Tollorin wrote:
but is little compared to many conservatives been fine that "terrorist" been sent to jail or executed without proper trials.


According to what source?



goldfish21
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21 Feb 2018, 11:48 am

EzraS wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I'll take that as a yes. The justice system's decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed. And further more guilty based on no actual evedence. Is that really how you want the justice system to work?


I'm not talking about the justice system. I'm talking about our opinions. Really? You expect that even though we're all hyper aware of how shady he is in his business dealings that he's somehow not been shady with his political campaign? Come on. How you do anything is how you do everything.. I'd bet $ he's done some seriously shady s**t with regards to the whole Russia thing. The only other plausible explanation is that Trump is too stupid to realize he's been played the whole time.


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JohnPowell
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21 Feb 2018, 12:15 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Reality check.



All this video is is a Trumpite justification of Russian interference in our elections.
And yes, there is a difference. During the Cold War, we believed we were in an existential struggle with a political system that had plotted to destroy us. At least today we can agree that the choices that were made were often wrong. Putin, on the other hand, aggressively wanted to stop his nemesis, Hillary Clinton, from becoming elected, because she had talked mean about him, preferring a compromised puppet like Trump. And with that compromised puppet, Putin is able to exact his revenge on America for humiliating Russia at the end of the Cold War.


Is this post a joke? The US plotted to destroy the Soviet Union, so don't start the story in the middle. Haha cool story. Like I said he is a terrible puppet then. None of this is about collusion. The only collusion that came from it was Flynn and Israel.


Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War. There isn't supposed to be such a relationship with Russia today.
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


:lol: :lmao: I can't believe you actually wrote that.

No they didn't, they were on the defensive and couldn't have destroyed you if they had wanted to. The US has bought on the bad relations by making up fake stories and putting sanctions on them and illegally going into a sovereign country, an ally of Russia and trying to remove the leader.


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Kraichgauer
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21 Feb 2018, 12:16 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mueller is only doing his job by conducting a criminal investigation, as there are legitimate questions. It's Trump and his supporters who are expressing consciousness of guilt by attacking Mueller.


That's just a continuation of the liberal public rendering a judgement of guilty until proven innocent. Do they believe the American justice system decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed?


Again, everyone is innocent till proven guilty, but alleged crimes must still be investigated, or criminals would never be punished.


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JohnPowell
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21 Feb 2018, 12:23 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I certainly don't doubt his shady actions, it is just none of them had anything to do with colluding with Russia. The only remote thing was Flynn being asked on behalf of Israel to try and get Russia to veto a resolution on their racial colonies, which didn't happen.

The media are pushing this phony story and they endlessly lie, so why would they stop now? The reason for the Russia tripe is because Putin spoiled the neocon game in Syria. Trump refused to support Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria like the Obama administration and like Clinton was going to. And why would he when he's from New York? He hasn't forgot 9/11.


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21 Feb 2018, 12:26 pm

EzraS wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I'll take that as a yes. The justice system's decree of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed. And further more guilty based on no actual evedence. Is that really how you want the justice system to work?


If this was about justice, Christopher Steele would be investigated and the Clinton's for colluding with a foreign agent to rig the 2016 election. Oh the irony....... :idea:


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Kraichgauer
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21 Feb 2018, 12:29 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Reality check.



All this video is is a Trumpite justification of Russian interference in our elections.
And yes, there is a difference. During the Cold War, we believed we were in an existential struggle with a political system that had plotted to destroy us. At least today we can agree that the choices that were made were often wrong. Putin, on the other hand, aggressively wanted to stop his nemesis, Hillary Clinton, from becoming elected, because she had talked mean about him, preferring a compromised puppet like Trump. And with that compromised puppet, Putin is able to exact his revenge on America for humiliating Russia at the end of the Cold War.


Is this post a joke? The US plotted to destroy the Soviet Union, so don't start the story in the middle. Haha cool story. Like I said he is a terrible puppet then. None of this is about collusion. The only collusion that came from it was Flynn and Israel.


Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War. There isn't supposed to be such a relationship with Russia today.
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


:lol: :lmao: I can't believe you actually wrote that.

No they didn't, they were on the defensive and couldn't have destroyed you if they had wanted to. The US has bought on the bad relations by making up fake stories and putting sanctions on them and illegally going into a sovereign country, an ally of Russia and trying to remove the leader.


The Soviets acted only defensively? You take an Anti-American stance on everything, don't you? Almost as much as you take Anti-Israel stances.


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goldfish21
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21 Feb 2018, 12:32 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I certainly don't doubt his shady actions, it is just none of them had anything to do with colluding with Russia. The only remote thing was Flynn being asked on behalf of Israel to try and get Russia to veto a resolution on their racial colonies, which didn't happen.

The media are pushing this phony story and they endlessly lie, so why would they stop now? The reason for the Russia tripe is because Putin spoiled the neocon game in Syria. Trump refused to support Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria like the Obama administration and like Clinton was going to. And why would he when he's from New York? He hasn't forgot 9/11.


Except 9/11 was an inside job false flag operation.. which maybe explains Trump’s treason if he’s actually loyal to American citizens.


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21 Feb 2018, 12:51 pm

EzraS wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
but is little compared to many conservatives been fine that "terrorist" been sent to jail or executed without proper trials.


According to what source?

You were not there in the mid 2000s, or rather you most likely don't remember the politic of back then; those who defend Trump today were the ones defending Bush and the Irak war, as well as defending the imprisonment of everyone they caught there in Guantanamo Bay without proper trial. More recently the Canadian government under the conservative party was refusing to repatriate Omar Kadhr even though he was prisoned in Guantanamo Bay without proper trial; then again many conservatives consider confession under torture a reliable proof.


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21 Feb 2018, 5:39 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Reality check.



All this video is is a Trumpite justification of Russian interference in our elections.
And yes, there is a difference. During the Cold War, we believed we were in an existential struggle with a political system that had plotted to destroy us. At least today we can agree that the choices that were made were often wrong. Putin, on the other hand, aggressively wanted to stop his nemesis, Hillary Clinton, from becoming elected, because she had talked mean about him, preferring a compromised puppet like Trump. And with that compromised puppet, Putin is able to exact his revenge on America for humiliating Russia at the end of the Cold War.


Is this post a joke? The US plotted to destroy the Soviet Union, so don't start the story in the middle. Haha cool story. Like I said he is a terrible puppet then. None of this is about collusion. The only collusion that came from it was Flynn and Israel.


Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War. There isn't supposed to be such a relationship with Russia today.
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


:lol: :lmao: I can't believe you actually wrote that.

No they didn't, they were on the defensive and couldn't have destroyed you if they had wanted to. The US has bought on the bad relations by making up fake stories and putting sanctions on them and illegally going into a sovereign country, an ally of Russia and trying to remove the leader.


The Soviets acted only defensively? You take an Anti-American stance on everything, don't you? Almost as much as you take Anti-Israel stances.


Tell me where I said "only"? I am against the political establishment. What policies of there's am I meant to support exactly? I support the democratic result in 2016 in the US and don't want it overturned.


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21 Feb 2018, 5:41 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Headline news has lost touch with reality. All speculation and no substance. It's changing from "collusion" to "meddling". No evidence, nothing. Mueller know the Russians cannot be extradited so is likely a way of just getting some kind of mud to stick.


Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed that shift from collusion to meddling.

Kraichgauer wrote:
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


What's funny Bill, is quite honestly I was about to say basically the same thing of liberals. At least as far as this situation goes. And one of the biggest problems I see in this is the prevailing attitude of guilty until proven innocent. Really just guilty period, even if the investigation ends up showing zero collusion between trump and putin.


There hasn't been a trial... yet. Mueller is still building his case. The fact that he has gotten guilty pleas says something.


Exactly, there hasn't been a trail or even an indictment, and yet there's the reversal of American justice that Trump has already been judged guilty, instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty of collusion with russia. The same with putin and russia in general.

The guilty pleas Mueller has gotten so far have nothing to do with trump or putin. They just don't outside of speculative accusation. That's not being pro-trump or pro-putin, it's just seeing the situation for what it truly is at this point in time. Certainty and insistence of guilt based on virtually nothing so far. No presumption of innocence whatsoever. That's not how American justice is supposed to work.


So now Trump's lifelong history of lying, cheating, and stealing isn't supposed to play any role whatsoever in whether people think he's guilty of doing some seriously shady s**t with Russia? Come on..


I certainly don't doubt his shady actions, it is just none of them had anything to do with colluding with Russia. The only remote thing was Flynn being asked on behalf of Israel to try and get Russia to veto a resolution on their racial colonies, which didn't happen.

The media are pushing this phony story and they endlessly lie, so why would they stop now? The reason for the Russia tripe is because Putin spoiled the neocon game in Syria. Trump refused to support Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria like the Obama administration and like Clinton was going to. And why would he when he's from New York? He hasn't forgot 9/11.


Except 9/11 was an inside job false flag operation.. which maybe explains Trump’s treason if he’s actually loyal to American citizens.


I know it was.
But Al Qaeda Jihadis were still involved, the same types that Obama and Co were supporting in Syria. One of the groups had a 9/11 suspect freed from jail.


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EzraS
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21 Feb 2018, 8:47 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
I'm not talking about the justice system. I'm talking about our opinions. Really? You expect that even though we're all hyper aware of how shady he is in his business dealings that he's somehow not been shady with his political campaign? Come on. How you do anything is how you do everything.. I'd bet $ he's done some seriously shady s**t with regards to the whole Russia thing. The only other plausible explanation is that Trump is too stupid to realize he's been played the whole time.


I'm perfectly willing to accept that Trump (and Putin for that matter) is guilty of the "Russia thing" if there is any actual evidence of it having occurred (or is occurring regarding what ways Putin has been playing Trump). All you have to do is provide some actual evidence, rather than speculation and allegation, and I'll be convinced.



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21 Feb 2018, 11:54 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Reality check.



All this video is is a Trumpite justification of Russian interference in our elections.
And yes, there is a difference. During the Cold War, we believed we were in an existential struggle with a political system that had plotted to destroy us. At least today we can agree that the choices that were made were often wrong. Putin, on the other hand, aggressively wanted to stop his nemesis, Hillary Clinton, from becoming elected, because she had talked mean about him, preferring a compromised puppet like Trump. And with that compromised puppet, Putin is able to exact his revenge on America for humiliating Russia at the end of the Cold War.


Is this post a joke? The US plotted to destroy the Soviet Union, so don't start the story in the middle. Haha cool story. Like I said he is a terrible puppet then. None of this is about collusion. The only collusion that came from it was Flynn and Israel.


Yes, and they plotted to destroy us. As I stated, we were in an existential struggle with them. But back then, we and they knew what each other's intentions were, as that was the Cold War. There isn't supposed to be such a relationship with Russia today.
You conservatives can see only what you want to see, but that doesn't make it so.


:lol: :lmao: I can't believe you actually wrote that.

No they didn't, they were on the defensive and couldn't have destroyed you if they had wanted to. The US has bought on the bad relations by making up fake stories and putting sanctions on them and illegally going into a sovereign country, an ally of Russia and trying to remove the leader.


The Soviets acted only defensively? You take an Anti-American stance on everything, don't you? Almost as much as you take Anti-Israel stances.


Tell me where I said "only"? I am against the political establishment. What policies of there's am I meant to support exactly? I support the democratic result in 2016 in the US and don't want it overturned.


Then you should be demanding Clinton's installation into the White House, because she won the popular vote.


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22 Feb 2018, 1:41 am

Apparently it’s time to stop calling it Russian meddling:

https://www.salon.com/2018/02/21/it-is- ... -meddling/


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22 Feb 2018, 2:45 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Apparently it’s time to stop calling it Russian meddling:

https://www.salon.com/2018/02/21/it-is- ... -meddling/


It was being called collusion and then got downgraded to being called meddling. The facts of that article a few days old. The rhetoric of the article and Salon is too far to the left to be taken seriously. Just like something too far to the right shouldn't be taken seriously.