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gabemai314
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22 Feb 2018, 10:05 am

I disagree with your initial statement Piobaire. The Founders intended for the 2nd Amendment to be read in two parts: the justification clause and the operative clause. The justification clause states why a right is being secured. The operative clause states what right is being secured. Notice that the operative clause gives the people the right to bear arms, not the militia nor a state government. [1] I believe that the 2nd Amendment is crucial in today's world because I believe man (mankind) has an intrinsic right to self preservation. This includes the right to use lethal force when one's own life or the life of another person is put in immediate danger. Police response times vary in different areas [1], so waiting for the police is not an option in a life or death scenario. If law-abiding citizens cannot own guns, criminals will be the only ones who own firearms.

[1] PragerU, "Is Gun Ownership a Right?", YouTube, 27 Feb 2017, https://youtu.be/rEqGBOt32NM.

[2] Jae-Seung Lee, et al. "What Conditions Affect Police Response Time? Examining Situational and Neighborhood Factors" Police Quarterly, vol. 20, no. 1, Summer 2016, pp. 61-80. SAGEPUB, doi:10.1177/1098611116657327.


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Aniihya
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23 Feb 2018, 6:39 pm

I believe people who want to repeal the 2nd amendment are unintentionally or intentionally opening doors for an authoritarian, oppressive regime. Those doing it unintentionally mean well but fail to address the prime problems that lead to crime in the first place: lack of accessibility to certain services, a non-rehabilitational justice system and widespread poverty which all coincide with the wellbeing of the citizens. Those who are doing it intentionally are usually pseudo-revolutionary Marxists/state socialists who do not think highly of the first amendment because it allows their opponents to speak their mind and people to say things they don't like and they don't like the second amendment because on one hand they believe they are disarming opponents and on the other hand they simply believe crime will seize without guns.

I tend to be of the left wing that supports the second amendment. Usually if you ask a true left-libertarian, they will support the people right to bear arms including semi-automatic rifles. I believe in the search of absolute safety people will inevitably make it easy to create an unfree society.



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23 Feb 2018, 7:07 pm

Aniihya wrote:
I believe people who want to repeal the 2nd amendment are unintentionally or intentionally opening doors for an authoritarian, oppressive regime.


Bingo!



AspieUtah
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23 Feb 2018, 7:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
...Yes - - in a well regulated militia....

The phrase "well regulated" means "training" not the issuance of lawful regulations and policies.


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Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2018, 7:26 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
...Yes - - in a well regulated militia....

The phrase "well regulated" means "training" not the issuance of lawful regulations and policies.


Still, if a militia still existed in the sense meant in the constitution, loons and nutbars could be weeded out from gun ownership.


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old_comedywriter
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23 Feb 2018, 7:27 pm

Piobaire wrote:
The 2nd Amendment is complete and utter nonsense; a worse-than-useless anachronism dating from a time when we were a confederation of states, there was no standing army, and the standard infantry weapon was a muzzle-loading smooth-bore .72 cal. flintlock musket that could be fired 4 times a minute with a range of 50 to 75 yards. We're now a nuclear-armed republic with the largest military in the world and an empire that spans the globe; the sole raison d'être of the 2nd Amendment; to maintain "a well-regulated militia", has been completely moot for over 100 years.

The Electoral College is an even worse anachronism, and is completely obsolete. Good luck starting with that one.


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kraftiekortie
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23 Feb 2018, 7:28 pm

The Electoral College absolutely is an anachronism.

The Second Amendment is only partially one.



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23 Feb 2018, 7:56 pm

If people screw with the Bill of Rights, they will, in turn, be mightily screwed, ultimately.



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23 Feb 2018, 9:03 pm

“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”



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24 Feb 2018, 2:24 am

How do you all feel about the idea of aspies and others with disorders being monitored y the fbi constantly. Sounds wonderful no? Having your life constantly monitored, dealing the visits from the fbi all because we were born different and this clearly are all potential mass shooters. Yay that’s what people are suggesting. La times has also said all mass shooters had a mental illness and democrats are lying again about Obama’s ssa gun ban, a ban which when proposed by the nra years before the Democrats fought hard against. So neither party likes us, they both just want to throw us under the bus to get what they want. At this rate we’ll probably see all us aspies locked in mental hospitals as we return to pre 1980 logic of mental disorders.

So maybe think little harder when you choose to support the lefts push for gun control and the side effects it’ll have on even you anti gun aspies. Cause once we are stigmatized as dangerous individuals as the Democrats call us it’ll effect you too. Good luck getting a job when your background checks comes up as not allowed to have guns due to being faked dangerous.



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24 Feb 2018, 12:21 pm

Most people that want to ban guns (yes, a ban of any kind of gun is a prelude to banning ALL guns) want to do so because they think guns are icky. Really, that's what it usually comes down to.

These people that want to simply remove the 2nd Amendment need to realize that there are 26 other amendments, some of which they feel are necessary, that could be removed as well...


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AspieUtah
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24 Feb 2018, 12:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
Most people that want to ban guns (yes, a ban of any kind of gun is a prelude to banning ALL guns) want to do so because they think guns are icky. Really, that's what it usually comes down to....

Indeed. It is amazing to watch someone who is on the fence about the Second Amendment fire his or her first round. Every single time I watched as my family members and friends fired their first round, they turned around with huge smiles on their faces. All of them said "That's it? THAT'S what I have been afraid of all my life?!? It's so simple!" The immediate sense of self-empowerment over fear is contagious. I loved teaching them something that they will never forget even if they just don't have an interest in hunting or shooting sports. I have never been skydiving, but I imagine the feeling is the same.


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24 Feb 2018, 1:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
Most people that want to ban guns (yes, a ban of any kind of gun is a prelude to banning ALL guns) want to do so because they think guns are icky. Really, that's what it usually comes down to.


First of all, do you have any proof that gun control would lead to the banning of all guns? You might as well say that banning the burning of the American Flag would lead to the banning of campfires.

Second, most gun control advocates have reasons that are more complex and nuanced. You aren't going to help your cause by ignoring the arguments that your opponents are making.

Almost all gun control advocates want to prevent gun-related murders. Have you ever seen anyone use the phrase "Guns are icky!" in a formal debate? I've never seen that.

Quote:
These people that want to simply remove the 2nd Amendment need to realize that there are 26 other amendments, some of which they feel are necessary, that could be removed as well...


False Equivalence

It's entirely possible that some constitutional amendments are better than others.


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24 Feb 2018, 2:05 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
False Equivalence

It's entirely possible that some constitutional amendments are better than others.

It might just be that, absent a slimly possible strong and trustworthy agreement to do otherwise, the suggested Article V Convention to propose and consider an amendment to repeal the Second Amendment would certainly provoke convention delegates to propose and consider an amendment to repeal any other amendment currently enacted ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventio ... nstitution ). Mess with the Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms (buy, own and use firearms), and watch the Fourteenth Amendment face a repeal of its right of equal protection, among others. Once such a convention is convened, it may do whatever its members wish, Democrats and Republicans.

I keep saying it: The Founders were deliberate and intentional about protecting the whole Constitution for the United States of America except in the most extreme circumstances where majorities of the people, their state legislatures and their Congress coalesce and agree.

It would be easier to convince cats and dogs to play nicely.


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24 Feb 2018, 3:06 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most people that want to ban guns (yes, a ban of any kind of gun is a prelude to banning ALL guns) want to do so because they think guns are icky. Really, that's what it usually comes down to.


First of all, do you have any proof that gun control would lead to the banning of all guns? You might as well say that banning the burning of the American Flag would lead to the banning of campfires.

Second, most gun control advocates have reasons that are more complex and nuanced. You aren't going to help your cause by ignoring the arguments that your opponents are making.

Almost all gun control advocates want to prevent gun-related murders. Have you ever seen anyone use the phrase "Guns are icky!" in a formal debate? I've never seen that.

Quote:
These people that want to simply remove the 2nd Amendment need to realize that there are 26 other amendments, some of which they feel are necessary, that could be removed as well...


False Equivalence

It's entirely possible that some constitutional amendments are better than others.



“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.



DarthMetaKnight
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24 Feb 2018, 3:21 pm

sly279 wrote:
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.


This post is very suspicious given that you haven't named a single Democrat senator. What are their names?

That quote is also highly suspect, since the word "firearm" is not used in the quote. Show me the context.


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