Boy scouts accepting girls. No safe place for boys.
05 May 2018, 2:48 pm
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
elsapelsa wrote:
^^Well with all respect... I have the feeling I would not be the biggest fan of a few of your parents choices and sentiments. But who am I to judge, barely keeping my own head over the water at times.
Confident parents should be all about spreading the net wide for their children in terms of allowing them to connect and learn from a wealth of individuals (of both genders) on their own terms. I remember when I was 5 or 6 and my mother would force me to go out and play on Saturdays and I would just sit in the basement and wait out the time until I could go home again. At this time a woman in her 20s or so connected with me and would invite me around to her flat to play "mastermind" and we would play for hours. I wish I could find this woman and thank her. She literally threw me a life-line, it was so much more than just sitting there playing this game over and over (she must have been bored stiff) it was recognition that everything is "ok" and it's ok to not want to be social and just do this instead. It was also something my mum would never ever have done with me and a level on which she never would have connected and interacted with me at that age and I felt like a "small adult" and that was really a great feeling.
When I see boys growing up in my immediate environment and I see them being in female dominated institutions for such a significant part of their youth, I do worry about them finding similar role-models and adults to connect with in that similar way. At my daughter's playgroup for example the boys are basically viewed as a gang of destructive and loud hooligans and (in my opinion) often get less constructive input from the teachers. They can be destructive and they can be wild, but I don't see much effort being put into re-directing that energy in creative ways. In school, children are forced to be very still and packed into large classes and once again I see boys being humiliated far more often than girls when they can't achieve the required amount of physical stillness and lack of fidgeting. Seriously, these kids are sometimes just 4 years old when they are required to spend much of the day in passive pursuits. It is not really realistic and whilst detrimental to all, it is particularly detrimental for many of the boys who are young starters. In the same vein most boys are then treated (by adults) as built to be able to sustain a certain level of physical assault without even mentioning it. One of my favourite of my daughter's "boy" friends started school young and has had the worst year of school-ground bullying and being pushed about at an age where he can't even verbalise it with ease and my experience is very much that instead of stepping in adults have taken the line that he should just grin and bear it because this is what is expected of a boy in the playground. It would be interesting to see how they would have responded had it been a girl. Or indeed if it had been a boy behaving to a girl in this way.
In my mind, this would be the only reason to have separate sex pursuits like boy scouts as needs might be quite different at certain ages and so pandering to some "middle ground" might be detrimental to both but then if there were more effective and creative adults involved in leading these groups then perhaps it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
Confident parents should be all about spreading the net wide for their children in terms of allowing them to connect and learn from a wealth of individuals (of both genders) on their own terms. I remember when I was 5 or 6 and my mother would force me to go out and play on Saturdays and I would just sit in the basement and wait out the time until I could go home again. At this time a woman in her 20s or so connected with me and would invite me around to her flat to play "mastermind" and we would play for hours. I wish I could find this woman and thank her. She literally threw me a life-line, it was so much more than just sitting there playing this game over and over (she must have been bored stiff) it was recognition that everything is "ok" and it's ok to not want to be social and just do this instead. It was also something my mum would never ever have done with me and a level on which she never would have connected and interacted with me at that age and I felt like a "small adult" and that was really a great feeling.
When I see boys growing up in my immediate environment and I see them being in female dominated institutions for such a significant part of their youth, I do worry about them finding similar role-models and adults to connect with in that similar way. At my daughter's playgroup for example the boys are basically viewed as a gang of destructive and loud hooligans and (in my opinion) often get less constructive input from the teachers. They can be destructive and they can be wild, but I don't see much effort being put into re-directing that energy in creative ways. In school, children are forced to be very still and packed into large classes and once again I see boys being humiliated far more often than girls when they can't achieve the required amount of physical stillness and lack of fidgeting. Seriously, these kids are sometimes just 4 years old when they are required to spend much of the day in passive pursuits. It is not really realistic and whilst detrimental to all, it is particularly detrimental for many of the boys who are young starters. In the same vein most boys are then treated (by adults) as built to be able to sustain a certain level of physical assault without even mentioning it. One of my favourite of my daughter's "boy" friends started school young and has had the worst year of school-ground bullying and being pushed about at an age where he can't even verbalise it with ease and my experience is very much that instead of stepping in adults have taken the line that he should just grin and bear it because this is what is expected of a boy in the playground. It would be interesting to see how they would have responded had it been a girl. Or indeed if it had been a boy behaving to a girl in this way.
In my mind, this would be the only reason to have separate sex pursuits like boy scouts as needs might be quite different at certain ages and so pandering to some "middle ground" might be detrimental to both but then if there were more effective and creative adults involved in leading these groups then perhaps it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
All kindergarten nurses (we start school at age 3 here), and all my elementary teachers were female- those had always been female-exclusive positions ; and I highly doubt that most parents would change want to change that.
I am entirely sure that the vast majority of parents of both boys and girls wouldn’t feel comfortable leaving their kids with adult males.
My niece and nephew's preschool teacher was male but that is highly unusual and there are a few female aids in the class. My sister did have reservations at first.
I think it's a little less controversial for a man to be an elementary school teacher though it's still uncommon here. One exclusively male occupation that involves close contact with young children is playing Santa Claus. Every year malls and other shopping venues hire men who dress up the Santa Claus and the children come sit on his lap and tell them what they want for Christmas. It's one of the socially acceptable ways for men who like children to interact with children in our society who are not their's.
Also a lot of puppet shows are put on by men and a lot of children songs are written by men. I've known at least three men who write children's songs. One of them was a physicist and the other two were doctors but not pediatricians.
Personally I think men should be an active part of children's lives because some of those children are going to grow up to be men and some of those children are going to grow up to be the wives of men. As in any situation where children are involved we just need to be cognizant of their personal safety needs. At my niece and nephews preschool the children are never alone with one single adult. In the situation of Santa Claus the children are never alone with the man who plays Santa Claus and Santa Claus and his hands are in view of everyone.
In most situations when men molest children, they do so out of view of others. A male counselor at one of my schools had been molesting little boys there. His counseling office had windows but he had put curtains on them and often kept them closed. Parents had also given him permission to give their sons rides home in his car.
At another school, it was discovered a class aide had engaged with inappropriate sexual conduct with a teenaged girl. In this instance though, the aide was female, but like with the man, she isolated her victim.
Campin_Cat
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05 May 2018, 3:49 pm
Darmok wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
the Boy Scouts had more fun, better camping and stuff like float trips. Girl scouts sold cookies.
You've actually discovered the underlying conspiracy here, the one that the media is covering up. This has nothing to do with gender wars, politics, or SJWism. It's in fact a secret move by the BSA leadership to take over the multi-billion dollar global cookie industry. Everything else is a smoke screen. Wake up, sheeple!!
LOLOL TOO funny!!
I totally agree with those that say that the boys' stuff is more fun! I remember being WAAAAAY more interested in what the boys were playin'----I mean, that's how I got to be such a good shot, and then, later, a race car driver (drag), and I had a total BLAST; and I'm sure it had something t'do with me becoming an engineer, and it had everything t'do with me wanting to take Shop.
Here's the way I feel about this..... I don't like the name change----and what's wrong with the boys havin' their club, and the girls havin' theirs? Why does everything have to be about inclusion? No one can make one feel not included, unless that person lets someone make them feel that way----if the girls don't like what their scouts are doin', VOICE that, and change it!!
I understand that the BSA is doin' this because membership is down, or something like that----but, I also think it has something to do with being PC, and that is just total horse-hockey, in my book!
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Campin_Cat
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05 May 2018, 3:55 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
If you are unfairly discriminated against, mistreated or stigmatized it does not matter if you are in the “privilaged group” or that the other group has it worse than your group, you are still being unfairly treated.
Preach it, brother!!
I've always said that to everyone their problems are the worst, cuz they're the one's experiencing it!!
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
05 May 2018, 4:38 pm
Closet Genious wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I propose renaming this thread Oppression Olympics thread 1,000,000
Each gender has thier difficulties. Traditionally women have had it much more difficult now there is correction, partial correction and yes some overcorrection. If you are unfairly discriminated against, mistreated or stigmatized it does not matter if you are in the “privilaged group” or that the other group has it worse than your group, you are still being unfairly treated.
Each gender has thier difficulties. Traditionally women have had it much more difficult now there is correction, partial correction and yes some overcorrection. If you are unfairly discriminated against, mistreated or stigmatized it does not matter if you are in the “privilaged group” or that the other group has it worse than your group, you are still being unfairly treated.
That is a myth as far as I'm concerned. Men have been forced to be slaves and soldiers throughout history.
Never by women as a gender though, the way that women have been oppressed by men. There's never been a time when women had all the political power and deemed men not to be whole persons, like men have done to women in many cultures for centuries/millenia. You can't really say it's been equal in that regard--when men get sent off to war, it's by other men who are in power, usually rich men.
05 May 2018, 4:56 pm
Spiderpig wrote:
By the way, am I the only one who thinks maybe boys and girls can be safe together? I don't know, that's the way every school where I was worked, and it didn't seem so tragic. Does everyone now agree that setting up a safe environment for girls involves keeping boys away, and perhaps also vice-versa?
The most versatile solution would be to keep Boy and Girl Scouts segregated, and to create a similar organization for kids whose parents don't actually want them to stay ignorant of and insulated from the opposite sex for as long as possible.
The most versatile solution would be to keep Boy and Girl Scouts segregated, and to create a similar organization for kids whose parents don't actually want them to stay ignorant of and insulated from the opposite sex for as long as possible.
Safe in this sense means safe to be open.
Little girls won’t rant to talk about embarrassing girl issues around boys is how Girl Scouts put it.
Well boys won’t open up around girls either about their boy issues.
It’s same for adults which is why we have an women’s section.
05 May 2018, 5:02 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
I was born in 1983.
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
No we just have surgery done on us without our permission. Parents use to be able to sign their kids up for service to.
No ones saying past wasn’t rough for women just it wasn’t rainbows and sunshine for most men either like feminism paint it out.
Men were forced to fight women we’d forced to have sex. It was common to kidnap men from bars and force them to fight in armies and go back further they’d just go and take all the men from villages and towns to make them fight what ever empire at the time.
Today women have it better due to feminism pushing women’s issues while fighting to keep men in the 1950s.
Can you be drafted? Nope. You won’t be forced to go die for rich people. Then there’s how poor men are treated, how courts side with women in child cases. Men are forced to pay child support or go to jail for kids they never wanted cause their body their choice only applies to women.
05 May 2018, 5:04 pm
ScarletIbis wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
From my understanding, girl scouts don't offer things like camping or survival skills, hence, girls wanting to join the boy scouts.
Personally, I'd just make the girl scouts suck less.
Personally, I'd just make the girl scouts suck less.
Yep this right here^. Girl Scouts is awful.
I suspect that’s entirely location specific. Again I never went camping in Boy Scouts. We were lied to with cool pictures of fun camping trips. We did crafts in a basement and collected cans and occasionally went to organzation meetings at the school gym.
05 May 2018, 5:08 pm
Chronos wrote:
I wanted to join Boy Scouts when I was little because I preferred the things they did over the things Girl Scouts did. I was very upset I was not permitted to.
I had never donated anything to Boy Scouts because of that. I cannot support a children's organization that excludes children based on their sex. Instead I have always chosen to donate the Boys & Girls Club.
I think girls should be able to join Boy Scouts and boys should be able to join Girl Scouts. I think they should actually combined into a single organization.
I had never donated anything to Boy Scouts because of that. I cannot support a children's organization that excludes children based on their sex. Instead I have always chosen to donate the Boys & Girls Club.
I think girls should be able to join Boy Scouts and boys should be able to join Girl Scouts. I think they should actually combined into a single organization.
Do you also not support Girl Scouts?
I’d probably rather joined them.
05 May 2018, 5:12 pm
elsapelsa wrote:
In Sweden it was just scouts (no boy or girl groups), I must say that would be my preference.
Here there is Brownies and Boy scouts and some girls attend the scouts but no boys attend Brownies.
I can't say about Scouts but Brownies sucks. Their activities are boring and meaningless and it seems a waste of time. I would much rather see more survival skills and wilderness know-how as opposed to the endless crafts with straws and glitter or singing at homes for the elderly.
Saying that, I think one of the more pervasive problems is that there are very very few male role models. In my daughter's school there has been one male teacher. That is in a school of 350 students. At my younger daughter's playgroup it is all female teachers. It must have a signifiant impact on ALL children to just have female caregivers and teachers for so many years but in particular for male kids (and especially those that come from families where there are few positive male role-models). I wouldn't be at all surprised if boy scouts was run entirely by females too.
Here there is Brownies and Boy scouts and some girls attend the scouts but no boys attend Brownies.
I can't say about Scouts but Brownies sucks. Their activities are boring and meaningless and it seems a waste of time. I would much rather see more survival skills and wilderness know-how as opposed to the endless crafts with straws and glitter or singing at homes for the elderly.
Saying that, I think one of the more pervasive problems is that there are very very few male role models. In my daughter's school there has been one male teacher. That is in a school of 350 students. At my younger daughter's playgroup it is all female teachers. It must have a signifiant impact on ALL children to just have female caregivers and teachers for so many years but in particular for male kids (and especially those that come from families where there are few positive male role-models). I wouldn't be at all surprised if boy scouts was run entirely by females too.
My pack leader was female as were most others. They tended to be moms. The leaders at the big meetings seemed to be male.
When I joined royal rangers all the leaders were men. They took us camping and shooting. They had a big camping trip each year for the whole state. Groups came from all over. It lasted 3 days and had to hike to different locations to set up camp and complete tasks.
05 May 2018, 5:17 pm
sly279 wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I wanted to join Boy Scouts when I was little because I preferred the things they did over the things Girl Scouts did. I was very upset I was not permitted to.
I had never donated anything to Boy Scouts because of that. I cannot support a children's organization that excludes children based on their sex. Instead I have always chosen to donate the Boys & Girls Club.
I think girls should be able to join Boy Scouts and boys should be able to join Girl Scouts. I think they should actually combined into a single organization.
I had never donated anything to Boy Scouts because of that. I cannot support a children's organization that excludes children based on their sex. Instead I have always chosen to donate the Boys & Girls Club.
I think girls should be able to join Boy Scouts and boys should be able to join Girl Scouts. I think they should actually combined into a single organization.
Do you also not support Girl Scouts?
I’d probably rather joined them.
I have only supported the Boys and Girls Club.
05 May 2018, 5:53 pm
sly279 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I was born in 1983.
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
No we just have surgery done on us without our permission. Parents use to be able to sign their kids up for service to.
No ones saying past wasn’t rough for women just it wasn’t rainbows and sunshine for most men either like feminism paint it out.
Men were forced to fight women we’d forced to have sex. It was common to kidnap men from bars and force them to fight in armies and go back further they’d just go and take all the men from villages and towns to make them fight what ever empire at the time.
Today women have it better due to feminism pushing women’s issues while fighting to keep men in the 1950s.
Can you be drafted? Nope. You won’t be forced to go die for rich people. Then there’s how poor men are treated, how courts side with women in child cases. Men are forced to pay child support or go to jail for kids they never wanted cause their body their choice only applies to women.
I joined the military for college money. It's not fair that I should sign-up to die just because
I'm poor.
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Sweetleaf
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05 May 2018, 6:37 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
From my understanding, girl scouts don't offer things like camping or survival skills, hence, girls wanting to join the boy scouts.
Personally, I'd just make the girl scouts suck less.
Personally, I'd just make the girl scouts suck less.
Yeah why don't they just do that? I would imagine thought that is part of it...some girls would rather learn camping skills and such than how to make a lanyard or how to sell cookies. That said over-all I don't like that they kind of push Christianity.
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ASPartOfMe
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05 May 2018, 6:45 pm
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I propose renaming this thread Oppression Olympics thread 1,000,000
Each gender has thier difficulties. Traditionally women have had it much more difficult now there is correction, partial correction and yes some overcorrection. If you are unfairly discriminated against, mistreated or stigmatized it does not matter if you are in the “privilaged group” or that the other group has it worse than your group, you are still being unfairly treated.
Each gender has thier difficulties. Traditionally women have had it much more difficult now there is correction, partial correction and yes some overcorrection. If you are unfairly discriminated against, mistreated or stigmatized it does not matter if you are in the “privilaged group” or that the other group has it worse than your group, you are still being unfairly treated.
That is a myth as far as I'm concerned. Men have been forced to be slaves and soldiers throughout history.
Never by women as a gender though, the way that women have been oppressed by men. There's never been a time when women had all the political power and deemed men not to be whole persons, like men have done to women in many cultures for centuries/millenia. You can't really say it's been equal in that regard--when men get sent off to war, it's by other men who are in power, usually rich men.
This thread has turned into exactly what I was advocating against.
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05 May 2018, 7:43 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
I joined the military for college money. It's not fair that I should sign-up to die just because
I'm poor.
I'm poor.
This is an unfortunate truth regarding the military.
Sometimes, the system makes you poor and you have to become a thug just to stay alive.
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05 May 2018, 9:54 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
sly279 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I was born in 1983.
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
My mom wanted to get her tubes tied. She was told she needed her husband's permission.
I wonder how many men have needed their wife's consent for surgical procedures....
No we just have surgery done on us without our permission. Parents use to be able to sign their kids up for service to.
No ones saying past wasn’t rough for women just it wasn’t rainbows and sunshine for most men either like feminism paint it out.
Men were forced to fight women we’d forced to have sex. It was common to kidnap men from bars and force them to fight in armies and go back further they’d just go and take all the men from villages and towns to make them fight what ever empire at the time.
Today women have it better due to feminism pushing women’s issues while fighting to keep men in the 1950s.
Can you be drafted? Nope. You won’t be forced to go die for rich people. Then there’s how poor men are treated, how courts side with women in child cases. Men are forced to pay child support or go to jail for kids they never wanted cause their body their choice only applies to women.
I joined the military for college money. It's not fair that I should sign-up to die just because
I'm poor.
Joined freely is far different then being forced to join. And usually it’s poor men who join most. Just to make any kind of money not even for college. Poor people can get grants, I did and there’s a lot more grants for women then men. Also as a woman you couldn’t serv in combat like men do. That’s changing but not when you were in. Imagine being forced to go fight in Vietnam where a lot of men die who didn’t have any choice.
Also you lucky they let you join, aspies are banned from joining now. So as a poor man I couldn’t even join the military to make money. I had to lose all my friends and watch them join up and leave all why they ask me why I’m auch a coward for not joining
Which is something I get a lot from people in person and online. But I’m not a coward I tried to join but how do I explain to them why I couldn’t without telling them I have autism :/
06 May 2018, 6:59 am
sly279 wrote:
Joined freely is far different then being forced to join. And usually it’s poor men who join most. Just to make any kind of money not even for college. Poor people can get grants, I did and there’s a lot more grants for women then men. Also as a woman you couldn’t serv in combat like men do. That’s changing but not when you were in. Imagine being forced to go fight in Vietnam where a lot of men die who didn’t have any choice.
No, the military was my only ticket out of my economically depressed small town.
And no, I wasn't in the infantry, but I did spend 8 years working with cancer-causing chemicals.
Quote:
Also you lucky they let you join, aspies are banned from joining now. So as a poor man I couldn’t even join the military to make money. I had to lose all my friends and watch them join up and leave all why they ask me why I’m auch a coward for not joining
Which is something I get a lot from people in person and online. But I’m not a coward I tried to join but how do I explain to them why I couldn’t without telling them I have autism :/
Which is something I get a lot from people in person and online. But I’m not a coward I tried to join but how do I explain to them why I couldn’t without telling them I have autism :/
Considering your distorted view of what military service involves, I'd say you were quite lucky to get rejected.
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-XFG (no longer a moderator)
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