The Palestinians were the "original Canaanites"

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The_Face_of_Boo
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10 Jun 2018, 5:09 pm

^ The Flood, all these prophets he sent...?

It’s all because he wants to be worshiped by as many as possible. And if the majority of some people doesn’t, he goes on rampage either by flooding them or casting some other mass-killing on them.

Yeah, this figure is so paranoid and narcissistic indeed. Why does he care so much to be worshiped by a tiny dust in that vast universe?

I don’t consider myself anti-theist because I am not a militant atheist- I don’t try to « convert » others to atheism; but I am simply telling you what I think of your god.



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10 Jun 2018, 5:36 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ The Flood, all these prophets he sent...?

It’s all because he wants to be worshiped by as many as possible. And if the majority of some people doesn’t, he goes on rampage either by flooding them or casting some other mass-killing on them.

Yeah, this figure is so paranoid and narcissistic indeed. Why does he care so much to be worshiped by a tiny dust in that vast universe?

I don’t consider myself anti-theist because I am not a militant atheist- I don’t try to « convert » others to atheism; but I am simply telling you what I think of your god.


You are very right about the God of the Bible. He's not a pleasant individual. He's a product of the society that created him - Ancient Israel.

Ancient Israelite culture was not like modern Jewish culture. Modern Jewish culture revolves around intellectualism. That's why so many people admire modern Jewish culture. Ancient Israelite culture was hyper-macho. They designed their God in their image.

They also argued that this insecure, jealous, destructive God was also a loving God. This rhetoric reminds me of abusive parenting. One of the most common abuse tactics is to take the word "love" and then mutilate in beyond recognition.

Let's compare the Ancient Israelites to the Ancient Greeks. The Greeks also believed in insecure, jealous, destructive gods, but they never attempted to portray these gods as loving gods. In fact, the Greeks beloved that humans were kinder than Gods.

Why do so many people even believe in divine omnibenevolence? The entire concept makes no sense. It makes no sense for an all-loving god to create a flawed universe, and then allow this morally flawed universe to continue with minimal divine intervention.

Given that the movement of the planets makes perfect sense with modern physics models, it is pretty clear that, if there is a God, his interference in this universe is minimal. On a day-to-day basis, we see the laws of nature playing themselves out.

Even devout Christians usually believe that a miracle is a rare occurrence. Doesn't this make God a lazy deadbeat?


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AngelRho
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10 Jun 2018, 6:14 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ The Flood, all these prophets he sent...?

It’s all because he wants to be worshiped by as many as possible. And if the majority of some people doesn’t, he goes on rampage either by flooding them or casting some other mass-killing on them.

Yeah, this figure is so paranoid and narcissistic indeed. Why does he care so much to be worshiped by a tiny dust in that vast universe?

I don’t consider myself anti-theist because I am not a militant atheist- I don’t try to « convert » others to atheism; but I am simply telling you what I think of your god.

I get it. It’s one thing to say, hey I don’t like this or that. But quite another to say “your God doesn’t exist and you’re just stupid.” I’m talking about people who play childish schoolyard bully games. Those types only have the power they are given. I find them good for a laugh when I’m bored, but at the end of the day I can do the same thing to them as I did to IRL bullies: ignore them right out of existence.

You kinda answered your own question. If someone really is paranoid and/or narcissistic, combined with divine attributes such as omnipotence, there’s NOT a reason to care. Once you account for omnipotence, knowing God can annihilate us at any time for any reason, especially knowing it’s been done at least once before, that God has no need to care what we think about him, that God doesn’t need us to make Himself look good or for any other reason, then why does He still want us and insist on those chosen by Him to reach out and bring others into a relationship with Him? If we are so insignificant, why does God still hold out for people who want to be saved?

And that’s when the idea of paranoia and narcissism fall apart. Omnipotence attribute means God has nothing to fear from us. And because we are so insignificant, and yet God still wants us, that shows that God values us more than anything else. Narcissism is an unnecessary assumption.



AngelRho
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10 Jun 2018, 6:27 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ The Flood, all these prophets he sent...?

It’s all because he wants to be worshiped by as many as possible. And if the majority of some people doesn’t, he goes on rampage either by flooding them or casting some other mass-killing on them.

Yeah, this figure is so paranoid and narcissistic indeed. Why does he care so much to be worshiped by a tiny dust in that vast universe?

I don’t consider myself anti-theist because I am not a militant atheist- I don’t try to « convert » others to atheism; but I am simply telling you what I think of your god.


You are very right about the God of the Bible. He's not a pleasant individual. He's a product of the society that created him - Ancient Israel.

Ancient Israelite culture was not like modern Jewish culture. Modern Jewish culture revolves around intellectualism. That's why so many people admire modern Jewish culture. Ancient Israelite culture was hyper-macho. They designed their God in their image.

They also argued that this insecure, jealous, destructive God was also a loving God. This rhetoric reminds me of abusive parenting. One of the most common abuse tactics is to take the word "love" and then mutilate in beyond recognition.

Let's compare the Ancient Israelites to the Ancient Greeks. The Greeks also believed in insecure, jealous, destructive gods, but they never attempted to portray these gods as loving gods. In fact, the Greeks beloved that humans were kinder than Gods.

Why do so many people even believe in divine omnibenevolence? The entire concept makes no sense. It makes no sense for an all-loving god to create a flawed universe, and then allow this morally flawed universe to continue with minimal divine intervention.

Given that the movement of the planets makes perfect sense with modern physics models, it is pretty clear that, if there is a God, his interference in this universe is minimal. On a day-to-day basis, we see the laws of nature playing themselves out.

Even devout Christians usually believe that a miracle is a rare occurrence. Doesn't this make God a lazy deadbeat?

Is there SOMETHING coherent in this post? I’m looking...looking...I mean, wow!

I’d like to attempt to answer re omnibenevolence because I do not understand how as an attribute of God that it’s logically possible. God hates sin. There. Argument defeated. Next? So we might agree on this one point. But the rest of the paragraph looks like a big jumble of straw man that doesn’t even try to acknowledge what actual Christian principles are. I don’t believe you’ve actually read the Bible.

I mean, where does it say YHWH created a flawed universe? I’m flipping through my copy of the Bible and I can’t find that anywhere.



Peacesells
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12 Jun 2018, 5:56 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
That god seems to be so careless about the state of the world

See what I was saying about superpowers? Here he confuses God with Superman.
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
You are very right about the God of the Bible. He's not a pleasant individual. He's a product of the society that created him - Ancient Israel.

Then I guess Christ was the natural product of... First century Roman-invaded Israel???



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17 Jun 2018, 4:22 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The only people being asked to go somewhere else under International Law are the illegal settlers. But they never will. That's why the apartheid regime needs to be crushed.


Yes, I absolutely agree, the illegal Israeli settlements must be stopped if there is to be a permanent peace.


I know. But it is too late for that now. Israel has had its chance. They do not want peace.


Netenyahu and Likud don't want peace, but I believe there are plenty of good people in Israel who do.


I'm sure you do believe that but you are wrong. 95% of Israelis supported the Gaza massacre in 2014. The racial colonies have always been worse under Labor governments. Peace won't come from the apartheid state.


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31 Oct 2019, 5:25 am

Image
Image

2 images of ugly racism.

I agree with the quote below

Image



TW1ZTY
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31 Oct 2019, 7:07 am

The story of Jericho really bothers me.



AngelRho
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01 Nov 2019, 5:21 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
The story of Jericho really bothers me.

Among other things I'm a dispensationalist, and things like genocide are not part of the age in which we live. After Christ appeared, it was once again up to the world as a whole whether it would assume God's mercy or judgment--with judgment ULTIMATELY where we all end up, similar to the age Noah lived in. We've been living in the "last days" ever since. Jericho bothers you because in a predominantly Christian moral framework, wiping out an entire city and judging an entire group of people as unredeemable is unthinkable.

But there are logical problems with the assumption that genocide is evil by necessity. It is logically possible for an entire population to be evil and deserving death. Just look at how many violent criminals are incarcerated in the United States, many of whom have limited contact with others and only get a couple hours of sunshine every day. Men AND women, and don't forget underaged minors, some of whom get adult sentences, and others who are jailed until they reach majority age and statistically will continue offending upon release. I mean...it really is enough to fill a city. From Wikipedia:

Quote:
"In 2016, 2.2 million Americans have been incarcerated, which means for every 100,000 there are 655 that are currently inmates. "


Not all of those are life sentences or violent criminals, of course, and if you search "Incarceration in the United States" I think the article may be biased. But even so, consider this (from same source):

Quote:
As of September 30, 2009 in federal prisons, 7.9% of sentenced prisoners were incarcerated for violent crimes,[33] while at year end 2008 of sentenced prisoners in state prisons, 52.4% had been jailed for violent crimes.[33] In 2002 (latest available data by type of offense), 21.6% of convicted inmates in jails were in prison for violent crimes. Among unconvicted inmates in jails in 2002, 34% had a violent offense as the most serious charge. 41% percent of convicted and unconvicted jail inmates in 2002 had a current or prior violent offense; 46% were nonviolent recidivists.[40]


That breaks it down a bit more in terms of percentages relative to the millions I mentioned earlier. In other words--a lot of frikkin' people!

It would be logically possible for a substantial criminal population to occupy a city. Rahab was described as a prostitute, which at best might just have meant she ran a hotel and it was ASSUMED she was a lady who "serviced" travelers from a similar ancient word that was translated as "prostitute." But in a modern context in which we are aware that human trafficking continues to happen and "prostitutes" may not be operating willingly, it would make sense that Rahab was taking advantage of the impending raid to escape a bad situation and offer her family a chance at a new life as Israelites. If crime and idolatry was so rampant that reform would have erased their identity as a people, to the extent they couldn't survive any other way, destruction is itself an act of mercy. And since the occupants of Jericho had long been well aware of what was coming, I have serious doubts that NO ONE made it out alive. The Israelites destroyed all human life they found there. But it would have made sense, if you knew they were coming and everyone in the city was fearful, for you to evacuate your family. If you refuse to leave or you want to stay and fight, YOU must accept whatever outcome.

Another point of contention is killing children. Again, that's a modern thing. We lack a concept of war as possibly being a just war if it's a Holy War. We don't practice holy war, and we have deep negative associations with holy war because it's usually holy war being waged against US and not the other way around. We think of jihad as horrible and unnecessary, perhaps even barbaric and unintelligent. We would never want to be accused of the same thing.

Children as collateral damage is not something that is always 100% avoidable, though we do the best we possibly can. Or that's at least the official policy. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus teach His followers to wage war in His name. Jesus taught His disciples to reach out to as many people as would welcome them to share the gospel. He taught His disciples to not make trouble but rather cooperate with government authorities. Children were very special in His teachings. Again, we are all products of the dispensation we live in.

So I can't imagine how killing children could ever be acceptable. I don't think that's something I could ever hope to understand or justify.

But go back to what I said earlier about an ancient dispensation. It IS logically possible to condemn an entire group of people.

Also, the instruction to conquer and destroy Jericho came from God Himself. God, being omniscient, would not only have known that the citizens of Jericho were unredeemable, but also would have known all the decisions every child would ever make, as well. So if God can see that the children all would inevitably fall in the footsteps of evil parents, it would LOGICALLY be justifiable to kill them.

Now...pay close attention to what I wrote. I said LOGICALLY justifiable. I'm not suggesting that it's ever ok to unilaterally slaughter children. I'm not talking about how we EMOTIONALLY react to it. I'm not talking about how we see it in our present time. I'm talking strictly black-and-white logic, no emotion, and I understand perfectly well how people can quickly get offended by this...not to mention I'm brushing up against WP site rules that all but demand an immediate ban just for discussing it. If an omniscient being, knowing EVERYTHING that could possibly happen, can see that absolutely nothing good could POSSIBLY come from even one child surviving an attack--and did I mention the being in question is OMNISCIENT???--then and ONLY then could the wholesale slaughter of an entire population of children be justified. And I'm going strictly by logic, here, not based on present-day cultural or societal associations with such activity. It's not something we really can understand...except...

Ok, except maybe in the case of abortion. Abortion, in effect, is "ripping babies from the womb," except in the modern context the mother typically survives. Abortion is infanticide, basically, and I'm really not sure how we manage to justify that, yet it's not ok to kill a toddler. I don't WANT to kill any toddlers, of course, so I have a hard time with justifying abortion in any other context besides self-defense (knowing giving birth WILL end the mother's life). IF AND ONLY IF you can know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that a child or population of children constitute a direct threat to a people group, and only an omniscient being can possibly know that, then LOGICALLY you DO have a justification for it.

I'm not good at this, but I'm going to try:
Homicide is justifiable in the case of self-defense.
God is omniscient and knows whether a child will grow to be a threat.
Therefore, a known directive from God to kill children in self-defense is justified.

So working backwards:
God gave a directive to destroy ALL humans residing in Jericho.
God is omniscient.
Therefore: The killing of children in Jericho MUST have been justified.

The problem most people will have with this is with mothers drowning their children in the bathtub after claiming to hear "the voice of God" and believing their children to be demonic. Now, a believer will note that if God allows something to happen, even if it is evil, that it is something that is included within His plan and that the ultimate end God desires cannot be accomplished any other way. Second, scripture provides ways for believers to "test God" to know His will. Priests in the ancient dispensation were given precise instructions for discerning God's will or leaving an unclear message to chance. The apostles after Jesus ascended drew lots for difficult decisions. And at ALL times signs from God had to be CONFIRMED by witnesses.

One did not simply march around Jericho.

And one does not simply drown her children in the bathtub. We aren't given that many details in Joshua, but we are given the framework from the earlier books of the law. It is extremely difficult, without making an emotional judgment, to say that what happened to Jericho should not have happened given the circumstances leading up to its destruction. In our dispensation, particularly within the confines of secular society, it is unusual, or perhaps impossible (for all we know), to understand that God would instruct believers to destroy one or more children. It's just not something we can say we've known to ever happen. And when you hear these tragic stories, there's never anything confirming about it.

So if you're disturbed by things like that in the Bible, it's perfectly ok if you are. You should be. But I also think things are much different at this point in time where God is reaching out in mercy and where there are many who still love Him. I doubt this will be the case forever, and perhaps thousands of years from now if humanity is still here, we might well see another such time as that in which the Canaanites still lived in Jericho.



TW1ZTY
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01 Nov 2019, 5:48 pm

I still don't believe it's possible for every single person in a city/country to be truly evil, but I do think maybe it's possible for a society to become so morally corrupt that in a way the society itself is evil and it can lead to their own destruction. That's kinda like what happened to the Romans, the Confederate States in the American South, and Nazi Germany.

I guess the destruction and devestation they recieved from war was pretty much brought on themselves. :|



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03 Nov 2019, 8:06 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
I still don't believe it's possible for every single person in a city/country to be truly evil, but I do think maybe it's possible for a society to become so morally corrupt that in a way the society itself is evil and it can lead to their own destruction. That's kinda like what happened to the Romans, the Confederate States in the American South, and Nazi Germany.

I guess the destruction and devestation they recieved from war was pretty much brought on themselves. :|

If God wants a nation to win, they will win. Hitler is an example of what happens when the little guys win. He had no leadership ability, failed at being a soldier, no moral compass. He found himself in the midst of mystic cult who blamed everyone except Germany for the problems of WWI. The German people did have legit problems with the west. Hitler could easily speak from the perspective of the little man, and he sold the German people on exactly what they wanted, distracting from the fact there was absolutely no reason he belonged in any kind of public office. He was a gifted activist who could have made a tremendous positive difference for Germany, he had his chance, and he blew it. I don’t believe God prefers the destruction of millions of lives, but I do see it as a teachable moment. Give virtuous people the power to rule according to their ability, and check the proper role of government as that which protects the governed. Europe did little to stand in his way when it was about uniting Germans and reclaiming territory. Further expansion and senseless attacks on those who had no beef with Germany was a grievous error, not to even mention the completely unwarranted extermination of people.

The CSA was doomed to failure, and the philosophy behind the CSA continues to be pervasive in USA society and will ultimately bring about the ruin of the entire nation if it isn’t stopped. The Democratic Party through slavery policies were champions of collectivism, and it continues to this day. They’ll never shake their heritage, though they do try in various clever ways. I honestly don’t understand why they hate the confederate flag so much, since all it lacks is a hammer and sickle before it perfectly represents their ideology. The only difference between American collectivists now and racial slavery then is they are seeking slavery of the mind if not the body. They act as though the poor, victim classes can’t think for themselves, so they have to take care of them in exchange for political power. And if you DARE produce something from the labor of your hands, you don’t get to enjoy it because it belongs in the hands of the needy. Well...slave laborers didn’t get to enjoy the fruits of their laborers, either. But the plantation owner had the same rationalization: Better a slave in America than free in Africa, because here you have a place to live and food to eat. I don’t respect white supremacists who fly the Confederate flag any more than any other collectivist in America, but I’ll grant them one thing: At least they are open and honest about what they are wrt racism. It’s not a long-term ideology that can hope to succeed.



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03 Nov 2019, 8:13 pm

Don't forget the fact that ALL of America basically stole its land from the natives who were here first and they killed many of them off.

If slavery is the sin that the south has to answer for, then I'd say this entire damn country needs to answer for so much more.



TW1ZTY
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03 Nov 2019, 8:16 pm

The fact is America is always doing bad s**t, and we always seem to win no matter how corrupt we get.

That's why I don't believe in karma, and if God allows us to go unpunished for our own evil then I don't like him.



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03 Nov 2019, 8:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I still don't believe it's possible for every single person in a city/country to be truly evil, but I do think maybe it's possible for a society to become so morally corrupt that in a way the society itself is evil and it can lead to their own destruction. That's kinda like what happened to the Romans, the Confederate States in the American South, and Nazi Germany.

I guess the destruction and devestation they recieved from war was pretty much brought on themselves. :|

If God wants a nation to win, they will win. Hitler is an example of what happens when the little guys win. He had no leadership ability, failed at being a soldier, no moral compass. He found himself in the midst of mystic cult who blamed everyone except Germany for the problems of WWI. The German people did have legit problems with the west. Hitler could easily speak from the perspective of the little man, and he sold the German people on exactly what they wanted, distracting from the fact there was absolutely no reason he belonged in any kind of public office. He was a gifted activist who could have made a tremendous positive difference for Germany, he had his chance, and he blew it. I don’t believe God prefers the destruction of millions of lives, but I do see it as a teachable moment. Give virtuous people the power to rule according to their ability, and check the proper role of government as that which protects the governed. Europe did little to stand in his way when it was about uniting Germans and reclaiming territory. Further expansion and senseless attacks on those who had no beef with Germany was a grievous error, not to even mention the completely unwarranted extermination of people.

The CSA was doomed to failure, and the philosophy behind the CSA continues to be pervasive in USA society and will ultimately bring about the ruin of the entire nation if it isn’t stopped. The Democratic Party through slavery policies were champions of collectivism, and it continues to this day. They’ll never shake their heritage, though they do try in various clever ways. I honestly don’t understand why they hate the confederate flag so much, since all it lacks is a hammer and sickle before it perfectly represents their ideology. The only difference between American collectivists now and racial slavery then is they are seeking slavery of the mind if not the body. They act as though the poor, victim classes can’t think for themselves, so they have to take care of them in exchange for political power. And if you DARE produce something from the labor of your hands, you don’t get to enjoy it because it belongs in the hands of the needy. Well...slave laborers didn’t get to enjoy the fruits of their laborers, either. But the plantation owner had the same rationalization: Better a slave in America than free in Africa, because here you have a place to live and food to eat. I don’t respect white supremacists who fly the Confederate flag any more than any other collectivist in America, but I’ll grant them one thing: At least they are open and honest about what they are wrt racism. It’s not a long-term ideology that can hope to succeed.


The Democrats are only collectivist in the propaganda of the right.
You don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor "because it belongs to the needy?" What's the alternative to taxation for the social safety net? Unless of course business people stop treating the market as a get rich quick scheme by working as few workers as hard as they can, with as little pay as possible, and embrace an altruistic business model of hiring as many workers as possible with a good wage and benefits. This investment in the economy will eventually, in the long term, bring them back prosperity, but a prosperity that isn't one sided as today.


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03 Nov 2019, 8:22 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
Don't forget the fact that ALL of America basically stole its land from the natives who were here first and they killed many of them off.

If slavery is the sin that the south has to answer for, then I'd say this entire damn country needs to answer for so much more.


Lincoln believed the war was God's punishment on the whole country: not just the south for having slavery, but also for the north for allowing it to continue for so long.


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03 Nov 2019, 8:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
Don't forget the fact that ALL of America basically stole its land from the natives who were here first and they killed many of them off.

If slavery is the sin that the south has to answer for, then I'd say this entire damn country needs to answer for so much more.


Lincoln believed the war was God's punishment on the whole country: not just the south for having slavery, but also for the north for allowing it to continue for so long.


Whoopty f*****g doo for the North. :roll: