I don't agree with conservatives on much. Except this topic. IMO this is legal murder (esp if the fetus is big enough and developed enough to survive on its own, its essentially infanticide) and the killing of people because they cramp someone's style. Its also a prime tool for social Darwinists, racists, and eugenics of all sorts.
How many of us here would have been aborted if there existed an in utero test for autism and or Aspergers? Answer me that. The fact is, 90% of people with Downs Syndrome are aborted simply because their parents don't want to have to care for a disabled child.
So, on this topic, I do wholeheartedly agree with the Right, the Vatican, Xtian Fundies, and etc (although generally not for their reasons).
_________________
"It must be understood, that neither by word nor deed had I given Fortunato cause to doubt my good-will. I continued as was my wont, to smile in his face, and he did not perceive that my smile was at the thought of his immolation."
Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado
lostonearth35
Veteran
Joined: 5 Jan 2010
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,876
Location: Lost on Earth, waddya think?
So it's okay to bring a newborn that will not be loved or cared for by drug-addicted mothers into an already overpopulated and doomed planet that will probably die anyway when it's tossed into a dumpster.
Now that I think about it, I guess it *is* okay. After all, millions of people commit suicide when they can't stand living anymore, and yet humans think that's wrong, too.
It's wrong to end a life before it officially begins because it may be unlivable, and it's wrong to end one's own life because it *has* become unlivable.
Nothing in this world makes any sense at all.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
Death is NEVER ok. Causing death is ESPECIALLY not ok.
It’s not a real problem until someone has to choose, whether intentionally or unintentionally, who lives or dies. If you unknowingly cause a person’s death, you are still at fault. The degree to which you are responsible for restitution may vary.
If you are forced to kill someone because they are a threat to you, that person might just as well have committed suicide. He’s responsible for that, not you.
Self defense and accidental death where you were not negligent are examples of killing that is understood not to be your fault, more or less.
Abortion is deliberate. It’s not an accident. So it’s either murder or it’s self-defense. To be self-defense, you must demonstrate that the baby was intentional in its purpose to cause your death and that abortion was your only option. Even if the baby isn’t trying to kill you, it’s still unfair to have to choose your life or his. I believe you are within your rights to abort the child if there’s no other way. This is a situation in which neither outcome is right or wrong.
Rape is like that. It’s unfair that you should be expected to carry a baby you didn’t consent to. So if you kill your baby, it’s murder and it’s the RAPIST who caused it. And he should get the death penalty for it as well.
All other circumstances for abortion constitute the definition of murder and both the woman seeking abortion and the barbaric physician who performs one should be given the same treatment as cold blooded killers.
It’s a barbaric procedure. If it must happen, it should be done as early in the pregnancy as possible to minimize pain and make death for the baby quick. I understand that there’s a pill for that now. And given that there are procedures that can easily preserve the life of both mother and baby, it should be rare.
It’s not a real problem until someone has to choose, whether intentionally or unintentionally, who lives or dies. If you unknowingly cause a person’s death, you are still at fault. The degree to which you are responsible for restitution may vary.
If you are forced to kill someone because they are a threat to you, that person might just as well have committed suicide. He’s responsible for that, not you.
Self defense and accidental death where you were not negligent are examples of killing that is understood not to be your fault, more or less.
Abortion is deliberate. It’s not an accident. So it’s either murder or it’s self-defense. To be self-defense, you must demonstrate that the baby was intentional in its purpose to cause your death and that abortion was your only option. Even if the baby isn’t trying to kill you, it’s still unfair to have to choose your life or his. I believe you are within your rights to abort the child if there’s no other way. This is a situation in which neither outcome is right or wrong.
Rape is like that. It’s unfair that you should be expected to carry a baby you didn’t consent to. So if you kill your baby, it’s murder and it’s the RAPIST who caused it. And he should get the death penalty for it as well.
All other circumstances for abortion constitute the definition of murder and both the woman seeking abortion and the barbaric physician who performs one should be given the same treatment as cold blooded killers.
It’s a barbaric procedure. If it must happen, it should be done as early in the pregnancy as possible to minimize pain and make death for the baby quick. I understand that there’s a pill for that now. And given that there are procedures that can easily preserve the life of both mother and baby, it should be rare.
To be clear you consider abortion to be murder but think women who have been raped should be allowed to get abortions and the rapist should be charged with murder?
How often are Abortions actually late term? I wonder if this is an example that is exaggerated by the Right.
Also, if there is easy access to contraception or Morning After pill termination option, would it be better to stop the pregnancy in the very early stages?
In some cases, late term Abortions may be necessary when pregnancies are going bad or leading to medical emergencies that can be avoided.
It is tragic that Abortion even needs to be considered, but human reproduction can be problematic sometimes, regretful mistakes can be made, or pregnancies from sex crimes.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
It’s not a real problem until someone has to choose, whether intentionally or unintentionally, who lives or dies. If you unknowingly cause a person’s death, you are still at fault. The degree to which you are responsible for restitution may vary.
If you are forced to kill someone because they are a threat to you, that person might just as well have committed suicide. He’s responsible for that, not you.
Self defense and accidental death where you were not negligent are examples of killing that is understood not to be your fault, more or less.
Abortion is deliberate. It’s not an accident. So it’s either murder or it’s self-defense. To be self-defense, you must demonstrate that the baby was intentional in its purpose to cause your death and that abortion was your only option. Even if the baby isn’t trying to kill you, it’s still unfair to have to choose your life or his. I believe you are within your rights to abort the child if there’s no other way. This is a situation in which neither outcome is right or wrong.
Rape is like that. It’s unfair that you should be expected to carry a baby you didn’t consent to. So if you kill your baby, it’s murder and it’s the RAPIST who caused it. And he should get the death penalty for it as well.
All other circumstances for abortion constitute the definition of murder and both the woman seeking abortion and the barbaric physician who performs one should be given the same treatment as cold blooded killers.
It’s a barbaric procedure. If it must happen, it should be done as early in the pregnancy as possible to minimize pain and make death for the baby quick. I understand that there’s a pill for that now. And given that there are procedures that can easily preserve the life of both mother and baby, it should be rare.
To be clear you consider abortion to be murder but think women who have been raped should be allowed to get abortions and the rapist should be charged with murder?
I do. Exactly right.
My philosophy of justice is hardline lex talionis, commonly known as “eye for an eye.” Every crime committed incurs a debt that must be reconciled in some way.
HOW that is reconciled depends on each individual case. One may be forgiven. One may be punished BUT punished to a lesser degree if the victim of a crime wants. The victim may be fully compensated in an equivalent exchange of money or property along with a FAIR award of punitive damages.
There’s no way to assess the loss of life, however. Someone who causes loss of life through accidental death not resulting from negligence or in self-defense will need some form of physical and legal protection from retaliation. I despise incarceration, for example, because it denies justice to both victim and perpetrator and is unnecessarily cruel and unmerciful to the prisoner. But I do favor incarceration as an institution that protects convicts from a public who may be less inclined to show mercy. It is possible to incarcerate someone in such a way as to keep them useful and productive within society, and our efforts in the west to do prison the right way are weak for the most part.
So when someone commits murder, which means the deliberate loss of life, there is only one price that can be repaid, and that is the life of the killer. That is a person who cannot safely exist within society at any time and cannot repay his debt among the living. His life must be required. The most merciful thing you can do is make his death a quick one. Even that is much better than he deserves, yet if you want to both grant justice AND mercy, it’s what you have to do.
Rape is bad enough to have to experience once. Why compel a woman to relive it for the rest of her life with a child resulting from rape? It doesn’t make sense. But if she causes the baby to die, she has committed murder. So you basically are punishing HER for being a victim, and that’s not right, either. Someone has to pay for the crime, and that leaves the rapist.
If society treated women as property, you could force her to marry the guy. He’d have to forfeit his right to a divorce, and society would compel him to treat her well. She’d basically have him by the balls.
And under certain circumstances in the ancient world, rape could earn you a death sentence. Still does in some societies today.
So...yeah...give the woman the OPTION to abort the child. If she doesn’t, then he still has to pay restitution for the care of the woman AND the baby. If she does, it’s nothing a little nitrogen in a sealed room can’t fix in a few minutes.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
Also, if there is easy access to contraception or Morning After pill termination option, would it be better to stop the pregnancy in the very early stages?
In some cases, late term Abortions may be necessary when pregnancies are going bad or leading to medical emergencies that can be avoided.
It is tragic that Abortion even needs to be considered, but human reproduction can be problematic sometimes, regretful mistakes can be made, or pregnancies from sex crimes.
I don’t consider an embryo viable unless it has implanted. I don’t view a multiplying clump of cells on its own to really have agency. With bc or plan B you can’t really know that, so I don’t consider that to be a problem.
Unlike a lot of folks on the right, I see abortion as a rare unfortunate necessity. However, I also think that if an abortion ever occurs, and I don’t care what stage, it’s too often. Termination of life is NEVER ok. It’s not a question of acceptability for me. It’s a question of who has to face the consequences and what those consequences should be.
I can say this, though, because I’ve seen it firsthand. I’ve been inside a bathroom covered in blood after a placenta previa broke. I nearly lost a wife and a daughter after that. But they are both still alive and healthy.
Things went so well we conceived another child while trying NOT to. I even got to watch doctors finish up afterwards while her guts were still laid out on her belly. C-section, you know. What docs are capable of seem nothing short of miraculous, but they are trained, skilled, and practice every day. It’s a beautiful thing what they do. So I just don’t buy this whole “danger to the mother thing.” Not unless the danger is imminent, unavoidable, and hard choices have to be made. Yes, things still go wrong. Yes, mistakes are made. But late-term abortions are especially onerous because most often the loss of life of either/both is avoidable.
Sea Breeze
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 25 Jan 2018
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 57
Location: Sweden
I think it bares to mention that human fetuses are similar to fetuses of other animals. The world is overpopulated. People in China are wearing masks just to breathe pretty much, because of a problematic situation that humans created. If a mother dosen't want a child, as a person coming from a neglectful upbringing, I think you should let her abort. If you are against abortion you are practically pro-suffering whether you want people to suffer or not. If you were to outlaw abortion all you would do is add unwanted children to the world, it's not like a mother who wants her child will have it aborted. As an anti-sufferer I am pro-abortion. And as for the you wouldn't of been born argument; Not to be rude but so what? This just seems like something that's used to fearmonger dunces into "Oh no me not existing! I'm scared! You're right screw them abortions."
It’s not a real problem until someone has to choose, whether intentionally or unintentionally, who lives or dies. If you unknowingly cause a person’s death, you are still at fault. The degree to which you are responsible for restitution may vary.
If you are forced to kill someone because they are a threat to you, that person might just as well have committed suicide. He’s responsible for that, not you.
Self defense and accidental death where you were not negligent are examples of killing that is understood not to be your fault, more or less.
Abortion is deliberate. It’s not an accident. So it’s either murder or it’s self-defense. To be self-defense, you must demonstrate that the baby was intentional in its purpose to cause your death and that abortion was your only option. Even if the baby isn’t trying to kill you, it’s still unfair to have to choose your life or his. I believe you are within your rights to abort the child if there’s no other way. This is a situation in which neither outcome is right or wrong.
Rape is like that. It’s unfair that you should be expected to carry a baby you didn’t consent to. So if you kill your baby, it’s murder and it’s the RAPIST who caused it. And he should get the death penalty for it as well.
All other circumstances for abortion constitute the definition of murder and both the woman seeking abortion and the barbaric physician who performs one should be given the same treatment as cold blooded killers.
It’s a barbaric procedure. If it must happen, it should be done as early in the pregnancy as possible to minimize pain and make death for the baby quick. I understand that there’s a pill for that now. And given that there are procedures that can easily preserve the life of both mother and baby, it should be rare.
To be clear you consider abortion to be murder but think women who have been raped should be allowed to get abortions and the rapist should be charged with murder?
I do. Exactly right.
My philosophy of justice is hardline lex talionis, commonly known as “eye for an eye.” Every crime committed incurs a debt that must be reconciled in some way.
HOW that is reconciled depends on each individual case. One may be forgiven. One may be punished BUT punished to a lesser degree if the victim of a crime wants. The victim may be fully compensated in an equivalent exchange of money or property along with a FAIR award of punitive damages.
There’s no way to assess the loss of life, however. Someone who causes loss of life through accidental death not resulting from negligence or in self-defense will need some form of physical and legal protection from retaliation. I despise incarceration, for example, because it denies justice to both victim and perpetrator and is unnecessarily cruel and unmerciful to the prisoner. But I do favor incarceration as an institution that protects convicts from a public who may be less inclined to show mercy. It is possible to incarcerate someone in such a way as to keep them useful and productive within society, and our efforts in the west to do prison the right way are weak for the most part.
So when someone commits murder, which means the deliberate loss of life, there is only one price that can be repaid, and that is the life of the killer. That is a person who cannot safely exist within society at any time and cannot repay his debt among the living. His life must be required. The most merciful thing you can do is make his death a quick one. Even that is much better than he deserves, yet if you want to both grant justice AND mercy, it’s what you have to do.
Rape is bad enough to have to experience once. Why compel a woman to relive it for the rest of her life with a child resulting from rape? It doesn’t make sense. But if she causes the baby to die, she has committed murder. So you basically are punishing HER for being a victim, and that’s not right, either. Someone has to pay for the crime, and that leaves the rapist.
If society treated women as property, you could force her to marry the guy. He’d have to forfeit his right to a divorce, and society would compel him to treat her well. She’d basically have him by the balls.
And under certain circumstances in the ancient world, rape could earn you a death sentence. Still does in some societies today.
So...yeah...give the woman the OPTION to abort the child. If she doesn’t, then he still has to pay restitution for the care of the woman AND the baby. If she does, it’s nothing a little nitrogen in a sealed room can’t fix in a few minutes.
That is nonsensical to me. If abortion is murder allowing a woman to murder her child because she was raped is insane. It is the duty of the state to prevent murder and punish murderers. If a woman was married, drugged and raped by another man and years later found out the child was actually his you wouldn't support her right to kill the child would you?
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
It’s not a real problem until someone has to choose, whether intentionally or unintentionally, who lives or dies. If you unknowingly cause a person’s death, you are still at fault. The degree to which you are responsible for restitution may vary.
If you are forced to kill someone because they are a threat to you, that person might just as well have committed suicide. He’s responsible for that, not you.
Self defense and accidental death where you were not negligent are examples of killing that is understood not to be your fault, more or less.
Abortion is deliberate. It’s not an accident. So it’s either murder or it’s self-defense. To be self-defense, you must demonstrate that the baby was intentional in its purpose to cause your death and that abortion was your only option. Even if the baby isn’t trying to kill you, it’s still unfair to have to choose your life or his. I believe you are within your rights to abort the child if there’s no other way. This is a situation in which neither outcome is right or wrong.
Rape is like that. It’s unfair that you should be expected to carry a baby you didn’t consent to. So if you kill your baby, it’s murder and it’s the RAPIST who caused it. And he should get the death penalty for it as well.
All other circumstances for abortion constitute the definition of murder and both the woman seeking abortion and the barbaric physician who performs one should be given the same treatment as cold blooded killers.
It’s a barbaric procedure. If it must happen, it should be done as early in the pregnancy as possible to minimize pain and make death for the baby quick. I understand that there’s a pill for that now. And given that there are procedures that can easily preserve the life of both mother and baby, it should be rare.
To be clear you consider abortion to be murder but think women who have been raped should be allowed to get abortions and the rapist should be charged with murder?
I do. Exactly right.
My philosophy of justice is hardline lex talionis, commonly known as “eye for an eye.” Every crime committed incurs a debt that must be reconciled in some way.
HOW that is reconciled depends on each individual case. One may be forgiven. One may be punished BUT punished to a lesser degree if the victim of a crime wants. The victim may be fully compensated in an equivalent exchange of money or property along with a FAIR award of punitive damages.
There’s no way to assess the loss of life, however. Someone who causes loss of life through accidental death not resulting from negligence or in self-defense will need some form of physical and legal protection from retaliation. I despise incarceration, for example, because it denies justice to both victim and perpetrator and is unnecessarily cruel and unmerciful to the prisoner. But I do favor incarceration as an institution that protects convicts from a public who may be less inclined to show mercy. It is possible to incarcerate someone in such a way as to keep them useful and productive within society, and our efforts in the west to do prison the right way are weak for the most part.
So when someone commits murder, which means the deliberate loss of life, there is only one price that can be repaid, and that is the life of the killer. That is a person who cannot safely exist within society at any time and cannot repay his debt among the living. His life must be required. The most merciful thing you can do is make his death a quick one. Even that is much better than he deserves, yet if you want to both grant justice AND mercy, it’s what you have to do.
Rape is bad enough to have to experience once. Why compel a woman to relive it for the rest of her life with a child resulting from rape? It doesn’t make sense. But if she causes the baby to die, she has committed murder. So you basically are punishing HER for being a victim, and that’s not right, either. Someone has to pay for the crime, and that leaves the rapist.
If society treated women as property, you could force her to marry the guy. He’d have to forfeit his right to a divorce, and society would compel him to treat her well. She’d basically have him by the balls.
And under certain circumstances in the ancient world, rape could earn you a death sentence. Still does in some societies today.
So...yeah...give the woman the OPTION to abort the child. If she doesn’t, then he still has to pay restitution for the care of the woman AND the baby. If she does, it’s nothing a little nitrogen in a sealed room can’t fix in a few minutes.
That is nonsensical to me. If abortion is murder allowing a woman to murder her child because she was raped is insane. It is the duty of the state to prevent murder and punish murderers. If a woman was married, drugged and raped by another man and years later found out the child was actually his you wouldn't support her right to kill the child would you?
Um...changing the subject much? We’re talking about what happens BEFORE natural birth, not after. Focus, please.
You are needlessly complicating the issue. I’m not talking about “years later.” I’m talking about immediately after the fact. I’m also not suggesting that a woman has no choice in the matter. If she knows the baby was conceived with a rapist, she can decide to keep the baby. There’s no need for anyone to die here. It’s about what a woman can choose to do and how the consequences of how she seeks compassion and justice play out.
I don’t believe in punishing children for the sins of the parents. I believe that children fall victim to the consequences of their actions or grow up to repeat their mistakes. A woman can choose to protect her child from the consequences of a biological’s actions or not. If not, the fault is not with her decision to terminate, but rather with the man who forced her to conceive in the first place.
People don't have near enough respect for life, so often not even their own.
It's sad more than anything.
_________________
Diagnosed autistic level 2, ODD, anxiety, dyspraxic, essential tremors, depression (Doubted), CAPD, hyper mobility syndrome
Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia
I'm very saddened by the emphasis on human lives ahead of other lives.
There's nothing special about an unborn person which means it deserves more protection than a pig. An embryo or early foetus is more on the level of a bacterium, which we routinely kill deliberately just because it is convenient. I see no reason to prioritise humans over non-humans.
Persons over non-persons, sure. But there's no sense in which an unborn human is a person.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
How many of us here would have been aborted if there existed an in utero test for autism and or Aspergers? Answer me that. The fact is, 90% of people with Downs Syndrome are aborted simply because their parents don't want to have to care for a disabled child.
So, on this topic, I do wholeheartedly agree with the Right, the Vatican, Xtian Fundies, and etc (although generally not for their reasons).
The only way I'm getting pregnant is if I get raped.
If I get raped and pregnant, I'm getting an abortion.
I don't want kids, and I don't want to be pregnant. Just because I was born female does NOT obligate me to be pregnant.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
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