No afterlife should = no fear of death.

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Trogluddite
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18 Jul 2018, 11:43 am

As a non-believer in an afterlife, I think of death in the same way that I think of the time before I was born or the unconsciousness of sleep, and I have never feared it. I don't see being dead as a different state of consciousness, but the complete absence of such a state.

My personal take on the fear of death is that it's simply an evolutionary adaptation; evolution favours consciousness where it makes an organism more fit to pass on its genes, so it makes sense that it would include an innate and profound sense of self-preservation. That I fear the process but not the outcome could maybe be explained by my autistic neurology making this trait, like any other, more likely to be an outlier, in much the same way that I enjoy sex but have never desired to reproduce. Systematising over empathising (with the "me" of the future), so to speak.

lostonearth35 wrote:
It's people who do believe in an afterlife who shouldn't be afraid of death.

That probably depends upon what kind of afterlife/afterlives they believe in, and whether they harbour doubts about how virtuously they have lived!


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Magna
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18 Jul 2018, 12:05 pm

Trogluddite wrote:
As a non-believer in an afterlife, I think of death in the same way that I think of the time before I was born or the unconsciousness of sleep, and I have never feared it. I don't see being dead as a different state of consciousness, but the complete absence of such a state.


Your belief as a non-believer in an afterlife is EXACTLY how I would think a non-believer in the afterlife SHOULD think of death. Thank you for your explanation. Your belief illustrates my point that I don't believe a non-believer in the afterlife should have any fear of being dead whatsoever, just as you in fact do not. Fear of dying? Fine. Fear of being dead/after death. A non-believer should not have fear of that in my opinion.

If a non-believer in an afterlife DOES have some fear about being dead, then I think there may be something more going on there that needs to be contemplated or come to terms with. Meaning, if a person who is a non-believer in an afterlife fears what death "might be" after they die, then they do in fact believe, even if inadvertently so, in an afterlife......



Trogluddite
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18 Jul 2018, 12:32 pm

Just thought I'd add, in case relevant; my autism includes severe alexithymia - difficulty comprehending my own emotions. As the fear of death is likely a purely emotional, rather than intellectual, response, this might also have some bearing on why I don't feel it (or possibly even do, but don't recognise it for what it is.)


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Syd
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18 Jul 2018, 9:46 pm



Gallia
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19 Jul 2018, 7:26 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I have a fear of death because I don't feel I have control over my movements once I die.

I feel like I'd be in a void I can't escape from. Eternal darkness.


i am afraid of eternal darkness too :(


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naturalplastic
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19 Jul 2018, 10:02 am

Probably the most ass-backward, thing that I have ever read in my life is the title of this thread. The whole reason they invented the concept of an afterlife in ancient times was because of the universal fear of death.

That stuff about "well...if you were good in this life you get a better afterlife, and if you were bad in this life you get punished in the afterlife" was an afterthought after ancient humans convinced themselves that there was an afterlife to begin with. Might as well put a little justice icing onto the afterlife cake.

The worst punishment modern society delivers to criminals is the death penalty. And that's not because every criminal is convinced that they are going Hades. Its because most criminals fear nonexistence (or are at least assumed to fear it by society).



Last edited by naturalplastic on 19 Jul 2018, 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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19 Jul 2018, 10:06 am

Magna wrote:
EzraS wrote:
It's not that I'm afraid of death, I'd just rather not be there when it happens.


What you say makes sense to me in that "rather not be there when it happens" I would equate to be the process of DYING. I think it's entirely normal for all of us to have fear associated with the act of dying since it's something none of us experience until it happens. Will there be pain involved, to what degree, etc.

It doesn't compute to me if someone says they believe nothing happens after they die, they're just gone but yet still then have a fear of being dead.


Let me get this straight.

So you have no objection to me murdering you? As long as the means that I killed you were painless ofcourse?



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19 Jul 2018, 10:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Probably the most ass-backward, and ret*d thing that I have ever read in my life is the title of this thread. The whole reason they invented the concept of an afterlife in ancient times was because of the universal fear of death.

That stuff about "well...if you were good in this life you get a better afterlife, and if you were bad in this life you get punished in the afterlife" was an afterthought after ancient humans convinced themselves that there was an afterlife to begin with. Might as well put a little justice icing onto the afterlife cake.

The worst punishment modern society delivers to criminals is the death penalty. And that's not because every criminal is convinced that they are going Hades. Its because most criminals fear nonexistence (or are at least assumed to fear it by society).


I disagree.

Living things avoid death to preserve their life, to continue to exist. Living life because it's the antitheses of death which is feared? I don't find the logic in that. Turning that around doesn't make sense to me: "I don't fear death therefore I don't have to avoid it, therefore there's no reason I need to live." Doesn't work for me.

Fearing nothing/nothingness (ie death with no afterlife) with no possibility of having awareness of the nothingness after death, what is there to fear? You're dead. You stop. You're done. There's no more you. You're not afraid after death, you're not anything after death. In every respect including existence, awareness, consciousness, you're nothing.

I'm very clear in that I believe it's innate in humans to fear the act of dying. Once your dead though, if you believe you cease to exist, the fear of non-existence does NOT compute with me.



kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2018, 10:43 am

It's weird, especially as I'm an agnostic atheist.

But I feel like I would still, somehow, "exist" in some manner after I "expire."

I haven't really explored this all that much---as I fear it so much.



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19 Jul 2018, 10:47 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Magna wrote:
EzraS wrote:
It's not that I'm afraid of death, I'd just rather not be there when it happens.


What you say makes sense to me in that "rather not be there when it happens" I would equate to be the process of DYING. I think it's entirely normal for all of us to have fear associated with the act of dying since it's something none of us experience until it happens. Will there be pain involved, to what degree, etc.

It doesn't compute to me if someone says they believe nothing happens after they die, they're just gone but yet still then have a fear of being dead.


Let me get this straight.

So you have no objection to me murdering you? As long as the means that I killed you were painless ofcourse?


We're not talking about whether a person wants to live or die. Everyone who is not suicidal or has chosen to die (terminally ill end stage) wants to continue living and therefore no one wants to be killed since most anyone has a fear of dying.

I'm trying to understand this. I don't know if you're saying non-believers in an afterlife think:

"After my death I will cease to exist. I will not know that I've ceased to exist but I have a fear that I won't exist even though I won't know that I won't exist."

Why fear being nothing when you won't even know you're nothing, you'll just be...nothing? It doesn't seem logical to me.

If I understand forum member Trogluddite correctly, he seems to be saying his belief is:

"I have a natural fear of dying. I don't fear being dead because I don't believe there's anything after life so there's nothing to fear 'after life'."

I don't understand a viewpoint such as:

"I have a natural fear of dying. I don't believe in an afterlife but I fear being dead (ie the 'after life')."



naturalplastic
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19 Jul 2018, 2:23 pm

Magna wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Magna wrote:
EzraS wrote:
It's not that I'm afraid of death, I'd just rather not be there when it happens.


What you say makes sense to me in that "rather not be there when it happens" I would equate to be the process of DYING. I think it's entirely normal for all of us to have fear associated with the act of dying since it's something none of us experience until it happens. Will there be pain involved, to what degree, etc.

It doesn't compute to me if someone says they believe nothing happens after they die, they're just gone but yet still then have a fear of being dead.


Let me get this straight.

So you have no objection to me murdering you? As long as the means that I killed you were painless ofcourse?


We're not talking about whether a person wants to live or die. Everyone who is not suicidal or has chosen to die (terminally ill end stage) wants to continue living and therefore no one wants to be killed since most anyone has a fear of dying.

I'm trying to understand this. I don't know if you're saying non-believers in an afterlife think:

"After my death I will cease to exist. I will not know that I've ceased to exist but I have a fear that I won't exist even though I won't know that I won't exist."

Why fear being nothing when you won't even know you're nothing, you'll just be...nothing? It doesn't seem logical to me.

If I understand forum member Trogluddite correctly, he seems to be saying his belief is:

"I have a natural fear of dying. I don't fear being dead because I don't believe there's anything after life so there's nothing to fear 'after life'."

I don't understand a viewpoint such as:

"I have a natural fear of dying. I don't believe in an afterlife but I fear being dead (ie the 'after life')."


I cannot figure out what you're saying.

Can you please answer my question?

Would you object to someone trying to painlessly murder you? Yes or no?



Magna
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19 Jul 2018, 2:31 pm

I would object to someone painlessly murdering me because I like existing/living independent of any fear of being dead. I don't like being alive because I have a fear of being dead. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly you seem to be saying a person that doesn't fear being dead should then have no opinion about being alive and therefore have no issue with someone murdering them.

Now let's get back on track and discuss the afterlife or lack thereof and our fear of being dead or lack of fear of being dead rather than life or the taking of life.

I think our lines of logic are not intersecting at all. We're missing each other here.

Perhaps giving an illustration will better explain what I mean:

A person who does not believe in any afterlife goes to the doctor after not feeling well and is told they have terminal cancer and only have three months to live. They are very afraid of ACT/process of dying and all of the unknown factors that go along with it. They eventually go through the 5 stages of grief with the last being "acceptance". They are close to death but still have awareness and consciousness enough to think. They still may have fear of the process of dying that they're experiencing in the present. They know they will be dead soon and wonder if up to and including at the moment of death it will be painful, frightening, etc. They may still be afraid of the remainder of the act of dying at that point. Being a non-believer in the afterlife, however, they don't have a fear of being dead. Their fear is coming to a close since the process of dying is nearly complete. There is nothing after they die. Full stop.



lostonearth35
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24 Aug 2018, 9:11 pm

I remember an episode of "Dinosaurs", where the grandmother had a near-death experience and afterwards she described as being so perfect Baby Sinclair said, "I wanna go to the afterlife! It's so much better than the now life."



ltcvnzl
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24 Aug 2018, 9:28 pm

i like to exist, i don't know how is to not-exist... it makes me really sad. also i don't want my body to be burnt or eat by worms. i don't know what to do :/ i don't want to die.



naturalplastic
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25 Aug 2018, 3:13 am

There is a semantic problem here.

Presumably the whole reason that the concept of the afterlife was invented was because the concept eliminated the universal fear of death that most humans have,.

So saying "no afterlife equals no fear of death" is probably one of the most ass-backward sounding thing that you can ever say.

But if you restated it as "no afterlife equals no fear of ….the afterlife" then it would make sense. May seem like the same thing, but it isn't really.

If you don't believe in an afterlife then you don't believe you will get either a reward or a punishment in the afterlife. So you would no reason to either fear death, nor look forward to it positively either. And since in many religious communities the fear of punishment is the more emphasized of the two possible outcomes - it is true that many religious spend more time fearing hell then looking forward to Heaven. So dropping the belief in an afterlife often does mean getting rid of a lot anxiety in some folks.