What is Asperger's Syndrome?

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Hello, all!

First, I want to preface this with the notion that I am not attacking any of you or Asperger's Syndrome. As such, please read this as objectively as possible.

My question for all of you willing to answer it is, "What is Asperger's Syndrome?" I have been reading a large number of posts that seem to contain conflicting meanings, or meanings that change from one day to the next as the situation calls for it. The first example of this is using Asperger's Syndrome as an excuse to engage in otherwise unacceptable because the posters cannot control their own actions. Not only that, but this forum seems to exist as a way to support said behaviors. An illustration of this that comes up far more frequently than I would have imagined is "child loving." In any more developed country, a concept such as a thirty-year-old man being in love and trying to have a relationship with a fifteen- or sixteen-year-old girl is forbidden, and it is met with scorn under the pretense that to actually engage in such a behavior is horrendous, but on this forum, there is no scorn: "Well, maybe you would get caught," or, "you should not do that because it is illegal." Surely these are jokes. How can anybody actively or even passively support an idea as despicable as rape (in the United States, any such act with somebody under eighteen is rape)? I am sure I can supply links to these topics that I have seen on the forums, although I am only recalling them from memory right now.

An example such as that is important to understand because it shows how Asperger's Syndrome can be used as an excuse ("I do not understand these laws, but I know what I want, therefore, maybe the laws are wrong"). Before the question can be asked, "Can Asperger's Syndrome be used to excuse behavior?" the first question must be answered. Can any of you satisfactorily define Asperger's Syndrome and qualify it to be used as an excuse? If it is a set of behaviors, then the behaviors can be changed, correct? The argument to this is that there is a physical, material difference between those with Asperger's Syndrome and those without it. Can any of you support that argument? There is no evidence that indicates physical differences between the brains of those with Asperger's Syndrome and those without it, so this would lead to the argument, "Well, there are obviously differences. We just have not found them yet." Hopefully you can see that is leaking water like a gallon water bottle with the bottom cut off it? At this point, the only difference physically would have to be divine, and without any evidence of that, there is no reason to posit that is true.

If Asperger's Syndrome were a set of behaviors that had no physical link to them, then there would be no "cure" in the sense that Asperger's Syndrome would not be a disease. Drugs could be invented that would (ironically) change the way the brain works in somebody with Asperger's Syndrome, but there would be nothing physically wrong with him or her. If we return now to the question of excuses, positing that Asperger's Syndrome is nothing more than a set of behaviors, the answer would surely be "No, Asperger's Syndrome cannot be used to excuse or explain any action." This is so because you would only have the support of everybody else claiming to have Asperger's Syndrome. While I can understand why that would seem viable, would anybody agree that NAMBLA (South Park made fun of this group in one of the episodes) members should be excused if they claim to have a disorder or syndrome that was not physically apparent but caused them to not only want to engage in such horrible behaviors, but to actually endulge that drive and commit those actions?

The last question is, "If Asperger's Syndrome is only a set of behaviors, can those behaviors be changed?" Without any physical evidence suggesting that there is a difference between an "Aspie" and a "Neurotypical," it must be possible to change those behaviors with motivation. If somebody was unhappy about how he or she was because he or she had Asperger's Syndrome, that somebody said he or she could not change because he or she had Asperger's Syndrome, the logic would be, "I have Asperger's Syndrome, so I behave differently. I cannot change the way Asperger's Syndrome affects me because I have Asperger's Syndrome." Do you understand the problem with this logic? "I am dumb, and I cannot change the fact that I am dumb because I am dumb." "Asperger's Syndrome causes Asperger's Syndrome" would be the same logic because the logic posits that Asperger's Syndrome is not only the effect, but the cause, as well. Alternatively, the logic could follow, "I behave differently. Why do I behave differently? Because I have Asperger's Syndrome. How do I know I have Asperger's Syndrome? Because I behave differently." The argument goes in a circle.

Ultimately, is it easier to live when you feel are different because of something as scientific as a "syndrome," instead of that you are different? I do not see the reason why it is important if I believe everything stated above is true or false. Instead, those are several concepts I wanted to discuss. It seems as if something as undefined as Asperger's Syndrome needs to be kept within reason, and I have been upset with some of the posts recently here because of the aforementioned reasons. Another example is a two-year-old being diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Maybe I was a dumb baby or toddler, but I do not believe I was very active then and I hope that I have changed significantly from those decades ago.

Once again, I am not posting this in the hopes that I will offend somebody. Instead, I am hoping to understand how some of these views can be accepted (the answer to "Why" is usually because it is easier). If there is any debate about physical evidence, reliable sources would need to be cited. Everything in this post could be wrong, and I accept that. I just wanted to bring all of this up.

Thank you,

-Ocher

It's autism with normal language development.

I post in these forums, but my tacit agreement with every statement made by every other poster is not implied and should not be inferred. Nor do I expect everyone who reads my words to adopt my point of view unconditionally. Maybe I don't preface every one of my posts with "IMO" or "IMHO" or some variation thereof, but really, how could I possibly speak for anyone except myself?


And the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America upholds your right - and the right of every other person here - to do so.

Well since I am an Introvert & that says what the different in the brain of an Extrovert to an introvert...

you have to view it on your comp & zoom in but you can see the line difference:-

http://bp0.blogger.com/_ramXhoemK4M/Rpj ... brains.jpg

Plus this:-

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199902 ... _sys.shtml

But really who’s the 30 year old going at it with a 16year old? reading wrong? or is it a typical 16 year old not thinking straight or parent's monitoring or having the software to check what they child is up to.... I don't think that has anything to do with As....

Don't think any see it as a excuse its normally we do something & people say oh ignore it it’s an As thing, natural behaviour is harder to change than learned behaviour... No matter how much someone try's they will slip up, & really living with the guilt eating away at yourself isn't what I would call healthy, people surround themselves with likeminded people... They asking us to change into them funny eh...

I view aspergers as any cluster of symptoms that can include stuff such as:

- Repetitive behaviours

- Social impairments based on difficulty understanding body language or other non-verbal cues such as voice tone or facial expressions, along with difficulty understanding the need for non-literal conversation and speech with hidden meanings.

- Sometimes some types of clumsiness, or fine motor skills impairments (handwriting etc)

- A desire to analyse the world and goings on instead of tuning into all the social inferences

- Interests that are highly focused on and remembered in great detail. Or just an ability to focus so intensely the world seems to be shut out.

- Sensory senstivities and differences in perceiving sounds, smells, touch, sight etc to the norm

People with aspergers can have a range of these symptoms. Many can have some but not others. The symptoms can become more diffuse in people who are on the spectrum but closer to neurotypical.

It seems to be a developmental pathway that determines this structure of the brain but that does not mean a child or adult autistic or aspie cannot learn a range of good skills to deal with the world.

Last edited by zen_mistress on 24 Jan 2008, 6:52 am, edited 4 times in total.

This is a forum, and anyone can say anything here. ALSO, psychiatrists make mistakes, etc... You will find FEW here advocate rape! Frankly, I couldn't see the point in rape ANYWAY! I think anyone here advocating rape is probably a troll, and doesn't have AS.

Any "brain disorder" would appear to be mere behaviour, and most don't seem physical. There IS physical evidence with autism/aspergers though.

YEAH, in some way you CAN change the behaviour. But there IS an attitude that comes with it, and some of the behaviour is good, fun, or HAS A REASON! Like the woman that spoke of her son running around the store. Maybe he DID have sensory problems! His behaviour was then driven by a NEED!

I think others often understand AS as a set of behaviours, whereas those with AS are perhaps more focused on the internal state: the thought processes and sensory issues which influence outward behaviour. For example, I really don't understand why it makes so many NTs happy to be asked how they are feeling on a regular basis. I don't have any innate understanding of this. When people ask me how I'm feeling I tend to find it quite irritating because it distracts me from what I'm doing and I have to think of an answer. However, since it clearly does make people happy to be asked, I try to do it, because it makes them happy. So I've changed my behaviour to a behaviour which is less overtly aspie. It doesn't mean that I understand why that change is good on an intuitive level.

With any kind of condition/label you will find that some people use that label as an excuse for bad behaviour. It really doesn't mean much. The mere fact that one person may do something horrific and blame AS doesn't mean that all aspies feel the same or would do the same thing. I seriously doubt that there are more aspies who are interested in underage girls/boys than there are NTs. It's just possible that the aspies are more open about their feelings because they're less conscious of social taboos, but that's a different matter entirely.

I haven't seen the thread in question and I agree that Aspies are no more likely to be paedophiles than NT's.

However, what you are principally objecting to, I think, is the non-judgemental nature of some of the replies.

That is the nature of AS - to attempt to give a rational, logical response rather than a knee-jerk reaction of "Unclean - get away from me!"

In other words - this guy feels how he feels - we can't change that, so if we want him to change his behaviour, we have to come up with a logical reason why it would be in his own best interests to do so.

I don't see why you regard this as "condoning" his behaviour.

And by the way, it may be "rape" in the US, but 16 is the age of consent in the UK, & if the guy was not the girl's teacher or in some other position of responsibility, there wouldn't be anything illegal about it.

Age of consent is a cultural thing - personally I would not regard it as rape as long as the girl was over 16 & a willing and active participant and had not been "groomed" in any way.

The vast majority of us view rape and sex with children to be rather unacceptable from what I can see. I know I do. Anyone who is believed to think that such atrocities are OK get dealt with in one way or another. Also, I have never used my AS as an excuse to behave inappropriately. If I have behaved innapropriately, I am usually unaware I have done so unless someone chooses to mention it to me. Those who do purposefully use AS as an excuse to be bad or gain sympathy should be ashamed of themselves, although I don't think there are that many on WP.

Ocher, which forum were you on? No, never mind, I don't want to know. I cannot believe that what you saw was typical. And no, Asperger's has nothing to do with pedophilia. I doubt the rate of those with Asperger's engaging in such is any different than the rate of those with NT. If you know someone abusing a child, please tell the police.

"Oh, no! pray don't take me. I'm too little, that I am," said the billy goat. "Wait a bit till the second Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."

Hi Ocher!
A meaning has many meanings.

Child lover? I haven't heard that one yet.

Someone who loves children. Apparently its an aspie thing.

"How old are you? 14? piss off!"

lol I do this, I get really irritated when people do the how are you feeling thing. I get so annoyed because I really don't want to think about it, and I don't think it's relevant.

But to Ocher's question, I can only say -- geez, guy, Asperger's Syndrome is a type of highly functional autism. It is a neurological difference and while not physically obvious, in itself, it is not responsible or related to any kind of deviant, or normal, sexual preferences. There is no connection between stalkers and any kind of autism. That sounds like a medieval idea, to me. (Also you might want to check out the story of Roman Polanski, a movie director who had sex with a 13 year old back in the 70's, was charged and hasn't been back into the good ole USA since, and who does not have Asperger's, but, like a lot of guys, likes very young girls.) You're also trying to convince people that their problems are not real, but an excuse, and that is a terrible thing to imply. Anyone who uses any disability or impairment as a reason for violence is making a rhetorical leap, as you are. You are trying to connect sociopaths and Asperger's, where there is no feasible connection between them. Someone who robs a bank and kills a security guard might have manic depression, but does that mean that everyone who is depressed is going to rob a bank? NO, you're making erroneous connections between behavior that is neurologically different from most of the population, and behavior that is socially deviant. And before you start framing Asperger's for the rest of the world's problems, get this, many sexual predators, and even serial killers, seemed to have no problem fitting in with the rest of society before they were caught, and were, for the most part, considered normal and upstanding by everyone who knew them. Thus, some of the most dangerous criminals ever known were not perceived as different at all before they committed their crimes, nor did they stand out. That's the scary part isn't it?

Ocher, I think that part of the answer to your questions is that some of your statements about AS are simply wrong.

First, AS is not simply a "group of behaviors" -- it also involves a pattern of sensory sensitivities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. My son is 6 years old and has been diagnosed with AS. It is, most certainly, not an excuse for anything as far as he is concerned, because he doesn't know that he has it (we will tell him when he is a little older. Right now, we don't think that he is emotionally ready for that because he would see it as a terrible defect). Nor is it any kind of "excuse" on our part -- none of our friends know about his AS, mostly because few would understand it and some might avoid him because of it.

He was diagnosed by a developmental psychologist. We took him to see her because we didn't understand some of his behaviors. He avoided eye contact, didn't engage in pretend play, and used language in very unusual ways. He also had virtually no ability to perceive or understand other people's emotions -- I would show him a picture of someone crying and he would tell me that the person was happy. On the other hand, he was clearly ahead of other kids in other ways: He knew most of the alphabet by the age of 2 and was much better with numbers than other children.

Certain sounds that wouldn't bother most people were utterly intolerable to him. Turning on a blender in the kitchen would make him cover his ears, scream, and run from the room. So, you can see that AS isn't just a "group of behaviors" that someone can choose to change.

Second, you are simply mistaken when you say that the brains of people with AS are not different from those of typical people. A few links:

1. Differences in the pattern of cortical folding with autism and Asperger syndrome.

From this article: "Individuals with Asperger's syndrome had bilateral abnormalities in the intraparietal sulcus that correlated with age, intelligence quotient, and Autism Diagnostic Interview-Revised social and repetitive behavior scores."

2. Differences in the level of activation of face-processing brain regions in persons with Asperger syndrome. I realize that this is not an anatomical difference, but it would be rather difficult to fake, wouldn't you say?

3. Enlargement of the caudate nucleus in persons with Asperger syndrome.

4. Several studies have also shown that the amygdala is larger in persons with autism and Asperger syndrome than in typical persons.

5. The amygdala is not only different anatomically, but functionally in persons with Asperger syndrome.

6. Evidence of atypical functional connectivity involving the temporal lobe in persons with Asperger syndrome.

7. Evidence of decreased gray matter density in parts of the temporal cortex in persons with Asperger syndrome.

Note: My point here is simply to point out a few of the studies that have indicated anatomical and/or physiological differences in the brains of persons with Asperger syndrome. You can view these as "deficiencies" or as "differences" but, either way, you are simply mistaken when you say that there are no known differences between the Asperger brain and the typical brain.

First of all, all four criteria in the first diagnostic section of Asperger's Syndrome are opinionated. Here they are again, with the opinionated words in bold:

I. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level.
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest, or achievements with other people.
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (e.g. doing nice things for people in return for their having done nice things for you).

Any psychologist can use his so-called clinical judgment to slap the word "lack" onto a patient's forehead and profit off his diagnosis. That's why we need to be careful about the diagnostic process.

As for your question, no, I don't think that AS should be an excuse to break the law, particularly when the law is explicit--i.e., "Do not have sex with minors."

However, laws have been opposed on the grounds of vagueness in the past. For instance, the term "vagrant" was defined to indicate any of the following behaviors and types of people (from The Oxford Guide to American Law):

Rogues and vagabonds
Dissolute persons who beg
Common gamblers
Jugglers and unlawful players
Common drunkards
Common night walkers
Thieves
Pilferers or pickpockets
Traders in stolen property
Lewd, wanton, and lascivious persons
Keepers of gambling places
Common railers and brawlers
"Persons wandering or strolling around from place to place without any lawful purpose or object"
Habitual loafers
Disorderly persons
.
.
.

After the charge of vagueness, this list was shortened, but ironically, leaving in vague descriptors:

Loitering or prowling
Disorderly conduct
Open lewdness

For example, how do you define "disorderly conduct"? Even in federal law there is vagueness.

Now, back to the topic of Asperger's Syndrome. Telling people "not to use their AS as an excuse for bad behavior" does not help. What is needed is specific advice--e.g., "Don't call people names."

Last edited by MikeH106 on 24 Jan 2008, 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.