besides doing crunches/situps and jogging

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19 Feb 2008, 12:50 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
gekitsu wrote:
you clearly do not know what you are talking about - this statement is just not true. end of story.


I have met a lot of Kyokoushinkai blackbelts who can confirm what I said. A lot of MMA fighters (like Tank Abbot) also work out like bodybuilders and strongmen.

Quote:
we do some short sets of pushups inbetween, to not let the body down too much - as a pure torture exercise if you want - other than that, no strength training involved. strength comes by training and sparring mainly.
most martial artists dont look bulky because the kind of stress that is exerted during martial arts training is very unlike the slow strength method of weight training (hence, weight training is quasi useless to increase, say, punching power), but it rather makes you gain in explosivity (speed strength) - the rate of activated muscle fibers over time. just as a pure functional strength workout wont build that much more mass (except taken to extreme degrees, see louie simmons and his pals), martial arts practise isnt exactly known for building muscle bulk. they both focus on different aspects of strength, whereas a little amount of slow strength is a byproduct of muscle mass training of a bodybuilding routine, but nothing more.


Like I said: Tank Abbot is huge (he can benchpress 270 kg), and is a skilled MMA fighter. Bruce Lee was also pretty big when he was on steroids, and had weightlifting as a part of his schedule.

Quote:
re bodybuilding: bodybuilding isnt a sport in the sense that strength(or any other ability) is trained. bodybuilding is at no point about getting actual results except conforming to a certain ideal type. hence, bodybuilding training is a completely different story from training that serves an actual point. as a bodybuilder, you dont need to be fit, hence you dont need to employ training measures that make you so.


Strength is in fact trained during bodybuilding. Methods that increase strength are also efficient to increase muscle mass. Ronnie Coleman can leg press more than a metric ton eight times, and Jostein Ødegaarden can benchpress 220 kg 16 times.

Powerlifters and strongmen with a low percentage of bodyfat (Mariusz Pudzianowski, Arild Haugen, Scott Mendelson etc.) look almost like bodybuilders.

Quote:
these slow methods may over long (=huge) distances rid you of fat in a very soothing manner, not damaging the delicate curve of your carefully sculpted bicep and not challenging you in any serious way. but try your fitness against someone who runs ten 100m sprints in a row. (and this guy is likely to have his share of solid muscle)
try it against someone whos trained to deal out punches (an anaerobic activity) for twelve rounds.


I easily lost 10 kg in a few weeks with slow cardio sessions, without starvation, running or any other unnecesary crap. Bodybuilders don't use more than 16 weeks to go from being slightly obese to being ripped (that's when they use steroids).

Even though a bodybuilder don't have a chance against a sprinter when it comes to running, the sprinter has no chance against the bodybuilder when it comes to strength.



Tank Abott is probably the worse example of an MMA fighter you can pick. He has virtually no skill level whatsoever and is known as a brawler. He gets beaten regularly because he didn't ever get any better. Yes he is incredibly or was strong but he is notorious for having no cardio.

Mariusz Pudzianowski is another very bad example to pick. He may well use steroids but he trains by means of high intensity anaerobic interval training not low intensity stuff. That is why he has tremendous anaerobic fitness and is called the dominator in strongman circles.

Most powerlifters these days have reaslised the importance of being fit for your event. They use high intensity conditioning like sled dragging and sledgehammer work. This is highly anaerobic stuff and they certainly need to preserve muscle but they need to be fit too. Check out any top powerlifters training, look up Westside Barbell if you need proof.

That's crap about sprinters not being as strong as bodybuilders. Sprinters for their size are tremendously strong in fact pound for pound they are stronger. Take Ben Johnson he squatted 600lbs for a double at 200lbs bodyweight. That's up there in powerlifting terrority beyond all but the very strongest bodybuilders.



gekitsu
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19 Feb 2008, 1:07 pm

muscle bulk means increased diameter of the single muscle fiber. it has nothing to do with strength.
training to become stronger probably will, as a side effect, induce amounts of hypertrophy, but what will make you stronger is your increased neuromuscular performance, not the added bulk. training for sheer bulk (i.e.: with hypertrophy as primary goal, wont make you as strong as you could be)
from how i undertsood you, bulk is a form of strength, which is not the case.

re benchpressing exclusively: slowly, you're getting there.
let me break it down:
your benchpressing exercise is an anaerobic workout that targets a set of muscles. you will gain a varying percentage of strength and bulk, depending on how exactly your training is organized.
if you do benchpressing excessively, almost all the stimuli your body will receive are reduced to a certain pathway of generating energy (anaerobic - which is good, because anaerobic pathways generate more power but cant hold thieir output for long periods) - hence your muscle will be accustomed to outputting in that pathways force range. and, youll be neglecting a load of other muscles that wont receive any stimuli, hence degrade, because they arent needed.

if you do excessive amounts (i.e.: to the exclusion or strength workouts) of aerobic training, no matter whether you jog or walk, all the stimuli you give your body will be in the force range of your aerobic pathway: low power, long times, and fed on the breakdown of fats and proteins.
the muscle-degrading effect is to one part that the muscle wont need to be present for more than aerobic low-power output AND if you dont adjust it via nutrition, youll indeed burn protein. (even if you walk excessively, youll eventually lose your bulk - bulk isnt needed for walking in the sunshine all day)
if you give your body enough stimuli not to get rid of the muscle mass of your strength or bulk training, running isnt dangerous. especially since we live in an age where you can absolutely circumvent protein shortage, if that ramps up to be an issue.

the big deal now is: sprint workouts are fed on the same energy pathways as your benchpressing routine. they dont consume fat and protein but either atp/phosphocreatine (if you do really short max power bursts) or glucose breakdown (you know this pathway: it creates lactic acid in the process and is used for less intensive power output than atp but also holds longer durations, but before aerobic pathways kick in), and target muscles with an intensive stimulus (sprinting, throwing power punches repeatedly, doing successions of kicks, etcetera) rather than a low-power easy-going stimulus (like jogging around, walking, nordic walking, etcetera). please look up and understand the difference between a pushup and a plyometric pushup - chances are that you dont come remotely close to plyometric exercises as a bodybuilder - i know of a boxing trainer who does plyo pushups with three hand claps before he comes down to the ground again: front/back/front of his body. anyway, plyometric, or speed strength, exercises target a lot of muscle fibers and aim to increase the percentage of muscle fibers activated per time.
so, the sprint exercise itself (!) wont consume body fat (a said: anaerobic, glucose breakdown). what makes it so suitable for that goal is an observed effect that doing such a workout will keep your metabolism pushed for the rest of the day, feeding primarily on body fat. again, no protein consumed but getting your body to feed off body fat when your exercise is over already.

re bruce lee and my diarrhea: point being: you cant induce stories when all you know is numbers or extremely reduced snippets of information. no way you could have guessed i just had diarrhea - no way you could guess that bruce took steroids. you can hold the theory, but its just that, one theory amongst many.
and no, i dint lose 17 kg, but came quite close. i lost about 10-11 kilos during the whole process (losing water, degrading muscle mass because i lay in a hospital bed all day... you get the point).

re bodybuilding performance:
sprinters outrun bodybuilders, weightlifters outlift bodybuilders, even scrawny me outpunches bodybuilders and you sure dont want to know how bad a bodybuilder will fare against a wrestler. actually, most bodybuilders i have encountered were under heavy coordinative pressure (not to mention the huffing and puffing) when told to skip rope for three minutes. getting their legs up to someone elses ribcage? near impossible. doing so in a fast, explosive manner? never seen.
yeah, youll probably outlift everyone who isnt training for strength only as a primary goal... but to what cost? your bulk is in the way of getting anything done and all serious strength athletes will lift circles around you.
but then, once the he-man lookalike competition starts, its all a question of the haircut to decide which bodybuilder takes victory home.



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19 Feb 2008, 2:12 pm

aries wrote:
Tank Abott is probably the worse example of an MMA fighter you can pick. He has virtually no skill level whatsoever and is known as a brawler. He gets beaten regularly because he didn't ever get any better. Yes he is incredibly or was strong but he is notorious for having no cardio.


Tank Abbot can benchpress 270 kg. He wouldn't be able to do this with heavy anaerobic cardio sessions.

Quote:
Mariusz Pudzianowski is another very bad example to pick. He may well use steroids but he trains by means of high intensity anaerobic interval training not low intensity stuff. That is why he has tremendous anaerobic fitness and is called the dominator in strongman circles.


Pudzianowski does Karate (or so I've heard). His metabolism is fast because he has a pure mesomorphic body. Most powerlifters have a mesoendomorphical body, giving them the same advantage in muscle building, but less qualities in cardio workouts. Nobody say Pudzianowski was clean.

Quote:
Most powerlifters these days have reaslised the importance of being fit for your event. They use high intensity conditioning like sled dragging and sledgehammer work. This is highly anaerobic stuff and they certainly need to preserve muscle but they need to be fit too. Check out any top powerlifters training, look up Westside Barbell if you need proof.


They do sledgehammer to perform better in the competitions, sicne strongman is also about tecnique. In the norwegian strongman championship, the only one ripped of fat was Arild Haugen, but he was very young.

Quote:
That's crap about sprinters not being as strong as bodybuilders. Sprinters for their size are tremendously strong in fact pound for pound they are stronger. Take Ben Johnson he squatted 600lbs for a double at 200lbs bodyweight. That's up there in powerlifting terrority beyond all but the very strongest bodybuilders.


They're stronger pound for pound in their legs. Nobody denied that. Pound for pound the builders are stronger in their upper bodys. Franco Columbu could squat 655 lbs already in the 70's, while not being much heavier than a sprinter. I have yet to see a sprinter benchpress or deadlift anything that's even remotely close to what the builders does.

Ben Johnson has also admitted to steroid usage. Just though you'd like to know. Bill Pearl could squat 605 lbs in 1966 and even more in 1971, when he was clean. He never did any anaerobic workouts. He also admitted that he stopped riding his bike because it caused a decay in his muscle mass.


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19 Feb 2008, 2:32 pm

gekitsu wrote:
muscle bulk means increased diameter of the single muscle fiber. it has nothing to do with strength.
training to become stronger probably will, as a side effect, induce amounts of hypertrophy, but what will make you stronger is your increased neuromuscular performance, not the added bulk. training for sheer bulk (i.e.: with hypertrophy as primary goal, wont make you as strong as you could be)
from how i undertsood you, bulk is a form of strength, which is not the case.


When you bulk, you make sure you increase in calories to rapidly gain muscle mass. This is at least the norwegian definition. After you've bulked you use aerobic cardio sessions to lose the fat you gained during the bulk, while at the same time trying to keep the amount of muscle you've gained.

Quote:
your benchpressing exercise is an anaerobic workout that targets a set of muscles. you will gain a varying percentage of strength and bulk, depending on how exactly your training is organized.
if you do benchpressing excessively, almost all the stimuli your body will receive are reduced to a certain pathway of generating energy (anaerobic - which is good, because anaerobic pathways generate more power but cant hold thieir output for long periods) - hence your muscle will be accustomed to outputting in that pathways force range. and, youll be neglecting a load of other muscles that wont receive any stimuli, hence degrade, because they arent needed.


That's some of my points.

Quote:
if you do excessive amounts (i.e.: to the exclusion or strength workouts) of aerobic training, no matter whether you jog or walk, all the stimuli you give your body will be in the force range of your aerobic pathway: low power, long times, and fed on the breakdown of fats and proteins.


Nobody said you'd keep your muscle mass if you didn't do strength workouts.

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re bruce lee and my diarrhea: point being: you cant induce stories when all you know is numbers or extremely reduced snippets of information. no way you could have guessed i just had diarrhea - no way you could guess that bruce took steroids. you can hold the theory, but its just that, one theory amongst many.
and no, i dint lose 17 kg, but came quite close. i lost about 10-11 kilos during the whole process (losing water, degrading muscle mass because i lay in a hospital bed all day... you get the point).


Much of the weightloss from dianabol usage is loss of water. Joe Lewis doesn't for example deny Bruce Lee's steroid usage, but he claims that it's none of his business.

It's even found evidence that Bruce Lee had a prescription on steroids from his doctor. Some bodybuilders has gotten away with this to.

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re bodybuilding performance:
sprinters outrun bodybuilders, weightlifters outlift bodybuilders, even scrawny me outpunches bodybuilders and you sure dont want to know how bad a bodybuilder will fare against a wrestler. actually, most bodybuilders i have encountered were under heavy coordinative pressure (not to mention the huffing and puffing) when told to skip rope for three minutes. getting their legs up to someone elses ribcage? near impossible. doing so in a fast, explosive manner? never seen.


Bodybuilders don't train for endurance or condition, but for volume. The training used for bodybuilding and strongman is almost identical, thus giving bodybuilders amazing explosive strength, but not much endurance. A lot of powerlifters (eg. Svend Karlsen) are former bodybuilders and vice verca.

A lot of bodybuilders are however capable of running very fast for their size. Some (eg. Ronnie Coleman) are also quite acrobatic.

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yeah, youll probably outlift everyone who isnt training for strength only as a primary goal... but to what cost? your bulk is in the way of getting anything done and all serious strength athletes will lift circles around you.
but then, once the he-man lookalike competition starts, its all a question of the haircut to decide which bodybuilder takes victory home.


It's often a question of symmetry and aesthetics. That's how Frank Zane defeated Arnold Schwarzenegger. Frank Zane wasn't even fat off-season because his ectomorphical body gave him a perfect metabolism.


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19 Feb 2008, 3:50 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
The training used for bodybuilding and strongman is almost identical, thus giving bodybuilders amazing explosive strength, but not much endurance.


This is pure rubbish. Strongmen need endurance so how can their training be the same as a bodybuilder????? IT'S NOT THE SAME! How many BB's you see training with stones, sand bags, tractor tyres and other odd objects? Most BB's training is done in the gym. BB's are known for not being explosive because of their training! How much ballistic and plyometric training does the average BB do? NONE. You're just making this stuff up as you go along 8O



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19 Feb 2008, 5:42 pm

aries wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
The training used for bodybuilding and strongman is almost identical, thus giving bodybuilders amazing explosive strength, but not much endurance.


This is pure rubbish. Strongmen need endurance so how can their training be the same as a bodybuilder????? IT'S NOT THE SAME! How many BB's you see training with stones, sand bags, tractor tyres and other odd objects? Most BB's training is done in the gym. BB's are known for not being explosive because of their training! How much ballistic and plyometric training does the average BB do? NONE. You're just making this stuff up as you go along 8O


Nope. Bodybuilders are known to be explosive. 6 to 10 reps and 3 to 5 sets are an excelent way to gain explosive strength. Because of this, many bodybuilders can achieve excellent speeds at short distances, but they're not capable of running particularly long. Most strongmen work out with regular weights. At least they do n the local gym. At the local gym they train with few reps and they're not enduring. Plyometrics are used mostly to increase in speed. Explosive strength is eg. how much you can deadlift, squat, benchpress etc. ONCE, regardless of how much endurance or speed you've got.


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19 Feb 2008, 6:13 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
aries wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
The training used for bodybuilding and strongman is almost identical, thus giving bodybuilders amazing explosive strength, but not much endurance.


This is pure rubbish. Strongmen need endurance so how can their training be the same as a bodybuilder????? IT'S NOT THE SAME! How many BB's you see training with stones, sand bags, tractor tyres and other odd objects? Most BB's training is done in the gym. BB's are known for not being explosive because of their training! How much ballistic and plyometric training does the average BB do? NONE. You're just making this stuff up as you go along 8O


Nope. Bodybuilders are known to be explosive. 6 to 10 reps and 3 to 5 sets are an excelent way to gain explosive strength. Because of this, many bodybuilders can achieve excellent speeds at short distances, but they're not capable of running particularly long. Most strongmen work out with regular weights. At least they do n the local gym. At the local gym they train with few reps and they're not enduring. Plyometrics are used mostly to increase in speed. Explosive strength is eg. how much you can deadlift, squat, benchpress etc. ONCE, regardless of how much endurance or speed you've got.


NO! Explosive strength is eg. how much you can deadlift, squat, benchpress etc. ONCE[b] This statement is incorrect what you are describing is maximal strength. Explosive strength has few definitions but this is definitely not one of them! The concept has an element of time. Most commonly defined as the ability to exert maximal forces in minimal time. Therefore the atheletes with the most explosive strength are fast powerlifters. They lift in the 1-4 rep range and perform dynamic effort work with 50% of 1RM for speed. This is not anything like a body builder training to failure. In fact training to failure is one of the worse things you can do to develop explosive strength.

This is different to the concept of an athlete being explosive. You are right in that plyometrics and ballistic strength training focuses more on the speed-strength end of the strength spectrum but this is what most people think of as explosive which is why I used it in this fashion. If someone said explosive athlete I would think of a shot putter or an olympic lifter. Neither of these train using bodybuilding techniques.



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20 Feb 2008, 9:43 am

aries is spot-on with his definition.

strength: amount of muscle fibers activates per motor unit
explosivity/ speed strength: amount of muscle fibers activater per motor unit over time.

some powerlifters, like louie simmons, advocate occasional workouts with very submaximal loads and focus on a fast rep execution. doing so will force your muscles into a higher activation rate, not via raw load but via the task of getting that weight up there as fast as possible (under control, of course). you can absolutely expect some carryover to your max strength that way.
you can test your upper body explosivity by making plyometric pushups: do you even manage to leave the floor? can you clap? if so, more than once? (the second time clapping will be behind your back)

now, id be quite interested to know:

- how comes that at first, you advocated against jogging, which is an aerobic activity, and now run storm with the same arguments against sprinting, which is not an aerobic exercise? mixed something up in the process?

- how comes that you constantly preach that anaerobic workout kills muscle mass, yet all your bulk derives from anaerobic workouts?



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20 Feb 2008, 4:33 pm

aries wrote:
NO! Explosive strength is eg. how much you can deadlift, squat, benchpress etc. ONCE[b] This statement is incorrect what you are describing is maximal strength. Explosive strength has few definitions but this is definitely not one of them!


Then my english isn't perfect.

Quote:
They lift in the 1-4 rep range and perform dynamic effort work with 50% of 1RM for speed. This is not anything like a body builder training to failure. In fact training to failure is one of the worse things you can do to develop explosive strength.


Most bodybuilders don't train to failure. Bill Pearl warns against this on his web-site.


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20 Feb 2008, 4:38 pm

gekitsu wrote:
some powerlifters, like louie simmons, advocate occasional workouts with very submaximal loads and focus on a fast rep execution. doing so will force your muscles into a higher activation rate, not via raw load but via the task of getting that weight up there as fast as possible (under control, of course). you can absolutely expect some carryover to your max strength that way.


Most bodybuilders do fast lifts up and slow lifts down (I hope you understand what I mean).

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you can test your upper body explosivity by making plyometric pushups: do you even manage to leave the floor? can you clap? if so, more than once? (the second time clapping will be behind your back)


Haven't tried this for years, but I never got good at it.

Quote:
- how comes that at first, you advocated against jogging, which is an aerobic activity, and now run storm with the same arguments against sprinting, which is not an aerobic exercise? mixed something up in the process?


My point was the walking was more efficient than jogging.

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- how comes that you constantly preach that anaerobic workout kills muscle mass, yet all your bulk derives from anaerobic workouts?


If you eg. do only benchpress, then the body will in theory loose muscles everywhere but the muscles primarily and secondarily activated during the benchpress. I mainly advocated against anaerobic cardio sessions.


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20 Feb 2008, 10:15 pm

so...

for some weird reason, you say that all kind of weight work makes muscle grow. weight work is run on anaerobic energy pathways. were agreeing on that so far?

then, you say that you are against endurance workouts in the anaerobic area - so sprinting few short bursts with tons of pause inbetween, so as not to exhaust the energy system, must be okay, in your worldview, because its as much anaerobic activity as weightlifting.

so, the culprit seems to be the difference in training the energy pathway (endurance sessions) contra training muscle while just using said pathways.


unfortunately, that makes no sense at all, as anaerobic pathways do not run off fat or protein at all - aerobic pathways do: walking just as well as jogging.
the only thing that links anaerobic endurance training and body fat is the mentioned effect of the body burning fat after the workout session. note that the sources say fat, not protein.
note also that the activity itself obviously cant kill muscle mass either, due to sheer intensity of stimulus, if nothing else (what you claim for benchpressing stimulating growing performance in benchpressing muscles).

i plainly dont see where your claims should hold foot, except that if all you exclusively did was sprinting interval workouts, that youd obviously change from a bodybuilder to a sprinter. but we never talked about exclusively training endurance, we were talking about what kind of endurance training complements an overall training program best (in the original thread context, what kind of endurance workout works best with strength training to achieve lower body fat).
on the other hand, i do see how it burns body fat excessively, i do see how it increases stamina and i do see how it can increase vo2max.