Help! AS son argues constantly!

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KimJ
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14 Feb 2008, 10:59 am

I would be very careful throwing the ODD label around. It's given to "high functioning" autistics when their "behaviors" aren't understood. I know a woman whose son was labeled that and it was impossible for her to get IEP services after that. The therapies were the opposite of the therapies (or interventions, styles of teaching) for autism. They get tortuous. It ruined this kid for school.

Has someone sat this kid down and explained what appropriate conversation is? What the consequences of always arguing are? What the dangers are?

And no, not all kids are like this. Very few kids are like this.



NewportBeachDude
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14 Feb 2008, 4:11 pm

Triangle_Trees, that's a good point about General Ed teachers not being knowledgeable and thank you for bringing it up. However, they really should be. And, need to be.

Also, the teachers need to consort with their Psychologist when dealing with issues as such. Our School Psychologist has been to every IEP we've had and offered her input. I thought all schools required that, but I guess I'm wrong.

KimJ, I can't imagine someone redefining a diagnosis from Autism to ODD. Quite odd, but I believe you. In our situation, ODD was accepted as an issue resulting from the language, developmental and behavioral deficits of Autism and instead of taking away services, things were added to help our kid. Like I said, I guess every district is different.



Last edited by NewportBeachDude on 14 Feb 2008, 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Odin
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14 Feb 2008, 4:27 pm

Sounds like me when I was that age! 8O :lol: My main issue that caused me to get into arguments constantly was that I've I always hated "because I said so" and "that just the way things are" and similar non-answers given to me when I questioned the logic and reasonableness of social norms that NTs instinctively take for granted unless taught otherwise.

ODD sounds like one of those BS labels given to kids that question authority and refuse to be good sheep.


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KimJ
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14 Feb 2008, 5:06 pm

Newport, the child in question was "rediagnosed" ODD and his autism dx rejected by the school. He was a teen by the time it was fixed. He didn't act out, but would shut down when stressed.



NewportBeachDude
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14 Feb 2008, 5:14 pm

Odin wrote:
Sounds like me when I was that age! 8O :lol: My main issue that caused me to get into arguments constantly was that I've I always hated "because I said so" and "that just the way things are" and similar non-answers given to me when I questioned the logic and reasonableness of social norms that NTs instinctively take for granted unless taught otherwise.

ODD sounds like one of those BS labels given to kids that question authority and refuse to be good sheep.




I once heard someone describe Aspergers as one of those "Ridiculous made up disorders by people who can't cope with life and want to be anti-social."

Careful of the judgements we make about others. ODD is not more BS than Aspergers.

Peace.



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14 Feb 2008, 7:25 pm

NewportBeachDude wrote:
Odin wrote:
Sounds like me when I was that age! 8O :lol: My main issue that caused me to get into arguments constantly was that I've I always hated "because I said so" and "that just the way things are" and similar non-answers given to me when I questioned the logic and reasonableness of social norms that NTs instinctively take for granted unless taught otherwise.

ODD sounds like one of those BS labels given to kids that question authority and refuse to be good sheep.




I once heard someone describe Aspergers as one of those "Ridiculous made up disorders by people who can't cope with life and want to be anti-social."

Careful of the judgements we make about others. ODD is not more BS than Aspergers.

Peace.


Bad comparison. People that say AS and ADD are made up disorders are saying such because they think that they are an excuse. ODD is different, it seems to be one of those things used to label and stigmatize non-conformists.


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NewportBeachDude
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15 Feb 2008, 9:36 am

Odin wrote:
NewportBeachDude wrote:
Odin wrote:
Sounds like me when I was that age! 8O :lol: My main issue that caused me to get into arguments constantly was that I've I always hated "because I said so" and "that just the way things are" and similar non-answers given to me when I questioned the logic and reasonableness of social norms that NTs instinctively take for granted unless taught otherwise.

ODD sounds like one of those BS labels given to kids that question authority and refuse to be good sheep.




I once heard someone describe Aspergers as one of those "Ridiculous made up disorders by people who can't cope with life and want to be anti-social."

Careful of the judgements we make about others. ODD is not more BS than Aspergers.

Peace.


Bad comparison. People that say AS and ADD are made up disorders are saying such because they think that they are an excuse. ODD is different, it seems to be one of those things used to label and stigmatize non-conformists.


How is ODD different? Do you know people who have actually been diagnosed? Have you worked with a therapist treating someone who was diagnosed? The importance of having a kid checked for it can mean the difference between treatment and getting better vs. non-treatment and getting worse. So, stop telling parents on this board that this is a made up disorder unless you have something more substantial, other than your blinded judgement, to back that up with!

Kids who suffer from this typically come from language and/or developmental delays where they do not process the negative the same way we do. Non-compliance is a huge factor because saying "stop," "no," "don't" or rejection is not registered in their brains the same way a normal person is wired. The foundation is neurological, not behavioral. The behavior is a manifestation or result of the physiological incompetance. That's why many of these Autistic kids who had ODD deal with major non-compliance issues, violent tantrums, emotional shutdown that can't be dealt with by normal means. They act that way not because they lack respect for authority or are being abstinate and strong-willed, they simply can't process the negative conceptually the same way we do and it leads to emotional meltdowns.

If that's hard for you to understand, just have a look at the majority of posts on World Planet. There's a lot of people here who have trouble processing certain ideas and emotions. These get in the way of them having relationships and holding jobs. ODD is no different, but fortunately it has a clinical diagnosis so therapists have treatment plans for it. ODD is persistant and can lead to major issues for the child and be a hindrance to that child learning or functioning anywhere.

Stop sweeping a suggestion made to a parent in earnest under the carpet. It would not hurt the mom in the OP to have her child checked for it and her School Psych can make the recommendation to do so and the district may pick up the tab. When you're raising a kid and have to deal with these issues, then come talk to me.



KimJ
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15 Feb 2008, 10:54 pm

With all due respect your descriptions of ODD are more of AS and not what I'm familiar with. ODD is deliberate noncompliance and uncooperative behavior. Treatment involves behavior management.
People with executive dysfunction do not respond well with positive reinforcement so well. Managing an (explosive) Aspie with a reward system or other type of positive behavior modification could make them more anxious. That's why I replied to be cautious in throwing around diagnoses like that. It really messed up one boys' whole school career because thoughtless people did that. Diagnosing him with ODD was saying, "he was bad on purpose". The treatments ran counter to the teaching style for autistics.

Quote:
Kids who suffer from this typically come from language and/or developmental delays where they do not process the negative the same way we do. Non-compliance is a huge factor because saying "stop," "no," "don't" or rejection is not registered in their brains the same way a normal person is wired. The foundation is neurological, not behavioral. The behavior is a manifestation or result of the physiological incompetance.


Sounds redundant because autistic kids already have executive dysfunction. So, they already have processing issues with "compliance" and negative commands. I don't see where ODD has any origin in "physiological incompetence".



ster
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16 Feb 2008, 1:12 pm

from my own experience, most outsiders ( people who don't know anything about AS) view AS as equaling ODD......ODD was one of the many tentative dxes given to my son during his stay in a psych ward a few years ago......I know the 2 disorders are different, but for whatever reason, some people just don't see the differences between them



NewportBeachDude
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17 Feb 2008, 12:11 am

KimJ wrote:
With all due respect your descriptions of ODD are more of AS and not what I'm familiar with. ODD is deliberate noncompliance and uncooperative behavior. Treatment involves behavior management. People with executive dysfunction do not respond well with positive reinforcement so well. Managing an (explosive) Aspie with a reward system or other type of positive behavior modification could make them more anxious. That's why I replied to be cautious in throwing around diagnoses like that. It really messed up one boys' whole school career because thoughtless people did that. Diagnosing him with ODD was saying, "he was bad on purpose". The treatments ran counter to the teaching style for autistics.

Sounds redundant because autistic kids already have executive dysfunction. So, they already have processing issues with "compliance" and negative commands. I don't see where ODD has any origin in "physiological incompetence".



KimJ, my kid carries both diagnoses. I didn't pull this out of a hat. When I read what her kid was doing it sounded all too familiar. We've dealt with it successfully using behavior mod (which I'm a big fan of) and based on what the OP described in her son, I suggested she have him evaulated. All you're saying is that someone you knew had "this" happen and "that" happen and it ruined him forever because that's what happened. What I'm trying to tell the OP is that that's NOT what happened in our case, she's chatting first-hand with a parent who's been there, and nobody can make sweeping generalizations about services being taken away like that if the kid does have AS.

I wasn't "throwing out" a diagnosis, as you put it. I think I know the difference between a suggestion and a diagnosis. I made a suggestion of ODD and that she have him evaluated. Someone came along and said ODD was made up, then you said don't do it because they'll change it from AS to ODD and take away services. My position is: 1) It's not made up, 2) In order to have the best tools possible to help your kid, it won't hurt to get him evaluated for ODD. Now that you've put fear in them of losing the AS diganosis and services, the OP might want to ask the powers that be if they're going to yank away anything as a result of the re-evaluation. But, rememer this, if the child truly does have ODD not AS, wouldn't it be better for the parent to know that? Why would a parent want to spin their wheels treating something the kid doesn't have to begin with? That's why that evaluation will put the parent in a better position to make these decisions.

We can't help Autistic kids or any other kid with a disability unless we're moving in the right direction. And, that direction starts with the core diagnosis and providing the best treatment to aid or fix the symptoms. The only way you're going to get to the bottom of it is to have the kid evaluated so parents will know what they're dealing with.

P.S. If you think the treatments for ODD run counter to treatments for Autism, boy oh boy are you missing out. For those who haven't gone down the behavior mod road, you must not know that these programs can be tailored made to target any manifestation you can imagine with some pretty remarkable results.



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17 Feb 2008, 4:34 am

Hi everyone. I only joined this website a week ago and have learned so much already. I have a 4yr old daughter diagnosed with high functioning autism, a 6 yr old son in the process of being diagnosed with Asperger's and a 21 month old son with very obvios OCD and AS symptoms. The eldest 2 also have oppositional defiance disorder. I can relate to the mum with the arguementative 6yr old. His favourite response when I ask him to do something etc is "I can't, I'm only 6 years old!" He often says "will you just stop talking!" "Stop talking to me, be quiet!" He will put his hand over his ears so he can't hear you. For a while he started hissing at us like a cat does which creeped me out. Now he just growls. The only thing that snaps him out of it is if one of us grabs him in a tackle and tickles him like crazy which forces him to laugh and sometimes cry. Then he gets up, growls and storms off. When he was younger I thought he may have had a personality disorder like a split personality. Gorgeous and sweet one minute and then the devil's spawn the next. Extremely unpredictable, sensitive, emotional, defiant, intense little boy. He argues about everything but only with myself, his dad and his grandma. Everyone else thinks he is an angel. Quirky and odd but and angel none the less.



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20 Mar 2008, 5:48 am

RockyMtnAspieMom wrote:
Triangular_Trees wrote:
He could also be arguing because thats the only way he knows how to have a conversation with you, where he feels you are truly listening to what hes saying
This does happen sometimes when he'll just come right out and say..."no, you don't know what I mean, Mommy...that's not what I mean..." and I will absolutely listen to him when he is trying to explain something that is hard for him to explain.

But, it's the "I don't want to go to school, I don't want to take the bus, I don't want to get dressed, I don't want to eat breakfast, I don't want to go to karate" then he argues with teachers and staff and aides at school all day and it is reported to me in his daily tracker, then he argues with the bus driver and then he comes home and it's more "I don't want to do homework, I don't want to eat dinner, I don't want to go to bed".

So perhaps he's not arguing with you, he is just saying that he doesn't want to do these things. Does he have to? Have you thought about homeschooling? Before he gives up on expressing his needs and desires, or expresses them more violently.

:(