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Felinity
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02 May 2008, 4:46 pm

GreenTea, I agree with what you're saying.. Aspies can learn to a certain extent how to avoid some major social mistakes... but the ability to intuitively "know" what NT's do naturally, will never happen for us.. We can get better at learning not to make big mistakes, but will really never be able to be as good socially as NTs.. I agree. Unless there is some way to develop that area of the brain that instinctively knows how to communicate NT-style -- then there is NO way we will ever be able to completely do that.. we can cover for it, adapt to try and fit in, but will never be "normal"..

I've been saying lately (as a joke to try and cover up for some of my mistakes) that whatever "gene" there is for social graces, I didn't get that one.. and that I got one for being musically gifted instead : ) Hopefully, people can understand that not everyone is alike and to embrace our differences.



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02 May 2008, 5:07 pm

But however much I may or may not try to adapt, I still want to know why it matters so much!! !! !!

Surely someone can answer that, even if not the "how"?



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02 May 2008, 5:22 pm

shopaholic wrote:
What do you mean by "need" to concede to others in the group? Who needs this & why do they need it?

Why do groups of NT's decide not to let others get away with certain things in a social situation? How do they make a collective decision like this without even discussing it with each other?

Why does the "singing" even happen in the first place?

Why is it so important to NT's that others conform to their rules?

Any NT reading my post will probably think "This is a spoof, she can't be serious!" But I am being serious - I really don't "get" why any of this c**p matters so much.


I don't know!

We're wired that way.

It's an NT's weakness. It's our flaw.

When NT's go on about personal development and becoming 'a better person' they are referring (I believe) to the flaw of conceding to a group and being so petty as to judge people on such superficial matters.

One of the advantages of having 2 Aspie sons is that it has taught me about this flaw. I now judge people on a different set of attributes. It's been like a 20 year personal development course crammed into a couple of years.

I sometimes feel so wise compared to other NT's. Aspies have taught me this wisdom.

It comes down to the general public become more educated about the strengths/advantages of aspies/autistics.

Helen



I'm sorry I can't give a better answer.



simplyhere
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02 May 2008, 7:11 pm

Well why does anything that anyone does mean anything?

Actions speak. . .you know the saying "actions speak louder than words". It is very true.

I think the problem lies in the interpreting of the actions.



amaren
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02 May 2008, 8:17 pm

shopaholic wrote:
But however much I may or may not try to adapt, I still want to know why it matters so much!! !! !!

Surely someone can answer that, even if not the "how"?


Not everything matters/is important/is valuable for a reason, or in order to get something else - some times things are just "valuable in themselves" to certain people.

Perhaps we might agree that happiness is valuable in itself - it doesn't only matter for achieving something else - it just matters. I think that things in rainbow-colour-order are valuable in themselves - I don't expect many people to agree with me on that one.

I suspect NTs find having a high-up, controlling place in this intricate social game valuable in itself - it's just something they want in life, so no matter if it's really hard to get and serves no other purpose, they still want it. And so they all play the game to try to get to the top status. Of course not all of them can rise right to the top, so some settle for midway status, and the ones at the bottom are just failures at this game.

I'm bewildered by the rules of the game though - I watch other people win by being gracious (conceding defeat in front of an audience, but when they didn't need to and were winning anyway) and I don't know why that wins.

Getting someone to think they're doing better at the game than they really are through flattering also seems to be a great tool - the flattered person then tries to use authority/prestige they haven't earned yet, so get some kind of 'access denied' and this makes them lose quite badly. Claiming responsibility for such maneuvers isn't allowed, that's bragging (also a losing activity), but this can get high-up people out of the way, and if anyone happens to notice what you did, that's good too.

Overall, it seems pretending not to win is key.. it makes some sense - if no one knows you're winning, they can't challenge you! This is my own mad theory, not something I know for sure, but it'd be interesting for me if anyone else has noticed something like this going on.

I recommend the whole Enders Game series by Orson Scott Card - he writes about gifted children, but some of them are gifted such that they can manipulate people and play this game well, but consciously, so there are lots of details on how they do it. The Worthing Saga, also by Card, is more politics/leadership focused, but still great. I can't be sure that it's an accurate portrayal of what NTs are doing, but it's close enough that it's been useful data for me.


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simplyhere
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02 May 2008, 9:19 pm

Can you describe the social game as you see it. . .I don't understand?



aries
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02 May 2008, 9:24 pm

Greentea wrote:
1. NTs will tell you there's nothing of the sort, because they're not aware of the game. They respond to it unconsciously and never need to make these tools conscious, so they can't help us. It's like a blind person asking someone who sees to describe the color green.

2. Some Aspies will tell you there's nothing of the sort, because they either haven't discovered it yet, or they have but are in denial (too grim a prospect to accept).

3. Other Aspies will shut up, because they're a minority among 1 and 2. Some may acknoweledge it in private messaging.

4. And one or two Aspies will be brave and acknowledge publicly that there is such a thing as social intuition and that we Aspies don't have it and never will.


If it (intuition) can't exist for aspies then why worry about looking for it? Cause we wouldn't know what to look for anyway. What exactly are you advising here? A you saying that the blind are trying to seek vision? If your saying there is no point in trying to improve social skills then I don't agree with you. I've improved mine and it helped me a lot, and I will continue improving them.


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amaren
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02 May 2008, 9:32 pm

simplyhere wrote:
Can you describe the social game as you see it. . .I don't understand?

I hope you're talking about what I wrote, or this'll look really silly...

I don't fully understand it either - I feel like I'm playing my own one all by myself where winning is being either physically stronger, or demonstrably smarter than the other people - but that's clearly not what everyone else is doing, cos they refuse to fight me, and think less of me when I brag.

I have no idea what the exact game that the NTs are playing is - I detailed some moves that seem to do well below, but the ultimate goal eludes me still. Respect perhaps? Power? Fame?

Respect seems most likely out of those, but I don't really know what that word means, so that doesn't get me very far. There's a big difference between "I respect your views but..." which means "You're an uninformed moron", and "I really respect X's decision to" which is more like "X is awesome and I really like them"..

So confusing!


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03 May 2008, 1:45 am

Felinity wrote:
I've been saying lately (as a joke to try and cover up for some of my mistakes) that whatever "gene" there is for social graces, I didn't get that one.. and that I got one for being musically gifted instead


This is self-acceptance. And it's the best we can do under the circumstances. Whether it helps in the relationship with others, I doubt it. But self-acceptance is giving up on the constant, life-long struggle against our own Nature - and this frees up SO MUCH ENERGY, TIME AND RESOURCES TO USE FOR GETTING AHEAD IN OTHER AREAS IN LIFE that Aspies, perseverant as we are, will succeed for sure. Someone asked what my advice is. THIS is my advice. I'm 46. I spent 44 years of my life trying to improve my social intuition, which can't be improved because it's not there. I tried desperately to be on the good side of people who always disapproved of me (due to my AS). And what? These people, the grown-ups of then, are long dead now, and my social intuition is the same as it was when I started trying to improve it: non-existent. I have nobody left to impress, yet I'm too old to develop a more worth-while life for myself, such as study more, get a better degree, find work that is without a social emphasis, travel the world instead of spending all I ever earned with my very hard work on therapists which helped, of course, NOTHING.

Do.Not.Waste.Your.Resources. Invest in what CAN be developed - that is your intellect and special abilities. Felinity has discovered the secret.


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03 May 2008, 1:53 am

Smelena wrote:
One of the advantages of having 2 Aspie sons is that it has taught me about this flaw. I now judge people on a different set of attributes. It's been like a 20 year personal development course crammed into a couple of years. I sometimes feel so wise compared to other NT's. Aspies have taught me this wisdom.


Wisdom is not the product of having been given challenges by life. Everyone gets thrown challenges during life. Wisdom is the product of deciding to cope with the challenges rather than denying them. You could've claimed forever that your kids are "lazy", "selfish" and don't WANT to behave like everyone else (like my parents did). You chose to accept reality and cope with it and do the best for your kids. That's what made you wise - all the learning and analysis you CHOSE to do along the way in areas so little trodden before you.


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Last edited by Greentea on 03 May 2008, 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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03 May 2008, 1:58 am

Specter wrote:
very well defined. :D Kudos Greentea. :D


agree with you



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03 May 2008, 2:04 am

Greentea wrote:
Example: We have a new boss. All my colleagues know how far they can go with the new boss and when to stop. From day one. I have no clue after 4 months. It's a very fine line. You can't determine it with enough precision except through intuition.


You simply see what everyone else does and try to place it around the lower limit, correct?


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03 May 2008, 2:10 am

shopaholic wrote:
What do you mean by "need" to concede to others in the group? Who needs this & why do they need it?


I think it's to prevent people from thinking you're self-centered and to compromise

Quote:
Why do groups of NT's decide not to let others get away with certain things in a social situation? How do they make a collective decision like this without even discussing it with each other?


Various reasons. They're friends (likely would think similarly), it's a domino think; one perosn starts it and everyone follows the leader as it is funny/they want to dogpile you/you're an outsider/etc.

Quote:
Why is it so important to NT's that others conform to their rules?


I dunno. Well they like order and control I guess


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03 May 2008, 2:14 am

amaren wrote:
I'm bewildered by the rules of the game though - I watch other people win by being gracious (conceding defeat in front of an audience, but when they didn't need to and were winning anyway) and I don't know why that wins.


Because a person was "light" or some crap, the mainstream says that said person was being humble or not a jackass, generating sympathy.

Quote:
I recommend the whole Enders Game series by Orson Scott Card - he writes about gifted children, but some of them are gifted such that they can manipulate people and play this game well, but consciously, so there are lots of details on how they do it. The Worthing Saga, also by Card, is more politics/leadership focused, but still great. I can't be sure that it's an accurate portrayal of what NTs are doing, but it's close enough that it's been useful data for me.


heh...cool. Ender's Game. So many talked about this.


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03 May 2008, 2:21 am

Amaren, your answer to shopaholic is right, to the best of my understanding. I'll be sure to check those books. Thanks for sharing!

Shopaholic, congrats on your inquisitiveness and the fact that you ask and want to know, rather than give yourself half-assed answers that don't work in the long run. I'll do my best to explain too.

Think of a game of baseball. You have your goal, but you can't go straight for your goal. There are bases along the way that you can't just run past. There are other players in the game, and rules you have to follow in order not to be thrown out by them before you reach your goal. You need some of the people in the game to help you reach your goal. You can't go it alone. This is at the basis of the social game, this is why there is a game at all: HUMANS CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT OTHER HUMANS. So we have to dance with them.

You also need to beat others who have opposing goals. So to reach your goal, you need to compete. To compete, you need to play the game. To play the game, you need to master the rules as well as possible. This results in a constant dance between your interests and those of others. Social intuition is a critical tool to discover the hidden rules of the game and the SPECIFIC dance that's being danced at any SPECIFIC moment by the SPECIFIC people involved (aka GROUP POLITICS). Since most people have this great tool called social intuition, you're at a great disadvantage if you don't (aka Aspies). We can use other tools we have which the majority doesn't, but if we waste our resources in trying to use social intuition, which we don't have, we'll lose for sure.

The ultimate goal is happiness, enjoyment, fulfillment. We CAN reach them with the tools that we DO have.


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03 May 2008, 2:35 am

amaren wrote:
I'm bewildered by the rules of the game though - I watch other people win by being gracious (conceding defeat in front of an audience, but when they didn't need to and were winning anyway) and I don't know why that wins.


I think to some extent it's about control, or at least the illusion of control. In the description you gave the person conceding defeat despite their advantage is taking control over a situation that could possibly end with the same result, but out of their control.

For instance, if someone who is expected to win doesn't, then his social status is somehow altered, and the response is something akin to "Aww, too bad." However, if that same someone concedes to the underdog, then the social status may be altered, but more favorably, with something along the lines of "Aww, how nice."

Of course, this is all speculation and late-night rambling, so there's a possibility it's nothing but nonsense.