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Chimchar
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07 May 2008, 9:26 am

I know what empathy means, like you see someone crying and you try to put yourself in their shoes. But I don'tt understand the 'lacking' part. I see someone cry all the time, or I see someone get teased. I want to help them, but I don't know how. I never know what to do. Or I fear that I might make everything worse.

Does that mean I lack empathy?



Greentea
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07 May 2008, 9:28 am

Yes. Empathy is an intuitive grasp of what the other is feeling and needs, what their interest / motivation is at a specific moment. It's not a conscious mental process, so it has nothing to do with experience or practice and the bearer of the intuition will not know why they acted a certain way. It just felt like the right thing to do.


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Chimchar
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07 May 2008, 9:40 am

I'm going to cry now. When I read that, I feel like the symptom of autism is being insensitive and cruel.



lannesman
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07 May 2008, 9:44 am

Empathy is sometimes more than wanting to help when you see someone crying. It is being able to emotionally relate to another's situation. If you have a friend who lost a family member (they died), and you had lost someone in your family (grandparent, etc) once, empathy is understanding the feelings that friend is experiencing because you went thru it too. Acting upon that empathy is optional. You "relate" to others who may been going thru things you have too.

Does this make sense.?



Chimchar
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07 May 2008, 9:46 am

lannesman wrote:
Empathy is sometimes more than wanting to help when you see someone crying. It is being able to emotionally relate to another's situation. If you have a friend who lost a family member (they died), and you had lost someone in your family (grandparent, etc) once, empathy is understanding the feelings that friend is experiencing because you went thru it too. Acting upon that empathy is optional. You "relate" to others who may been going thru things you have too.

Does this make sense.?


Yeah, and that's what I said. LOL



bookwormde
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07 May 2008, 9:58 am

I break it down into 2 parts.

First being the desire to help/comfort someone when you know they are in distress

The second is having the Theory of mind skills to understand that the person is in distress and if the at the level of distress your help or comfort would be appropriate and of course knowing the “social” rules for engaging in such a social activity.

In the first item if find that Aspies are no different than NTs excerpt that with people who are not part of our “clan” we are more likely be “involved” due to our non discriminatory nature and our heightened sense of social justice.

The second area is where the “trian comes of the tracks” If we have not received the intellectual education in this area and have practiced it then many times we are “lost”.

It is not a mater of not wanting to “help” but understanding that there is a need and having the social skill to effective help.

bookwormde



Alexey
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07 May 2008, 2:12 pm

chimchar wrote:
I know what empathy means, like you see someone crying and you try to put yourself in their shoes. But I don'tt understand the 'lacking' part.

Empathy is the special way of understanding emotions; I suppose, that it assumes "playback" (at least partial) of emotions of another people in your mind. I've asked several NTs about it: they are doing it without special learning, it is evident for them. It is closely connected with "theory of mind".

Greentea wrote:
It's not a conscious mental process, so it has nothing to do with experience or practice

I disagree: intuition may come from practice. There are some mathematicians that can intuitively imagine 4D or 5D space, so I suppose that it is possible to improve low empathy.



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07 May 2008, 4:52 pm

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I believe empathy is one of the biggest problems for aspies. Others' feelings, motivations, hidden agendas, interests, plans, goals are a mystery to us, we lack the intuition to capture them, we lack the antennae to tune into them.

This is not to be confused with lacking compassion. Once I know what another may be going through, I am extremely compassionate.

Empathy is the ability to figure what the other is feeling. It's what good salesmen are best at. They intuitively know how to catch your interest, what will hook you, what will make you feel at home with them. They're not necessarily compassionate. The fact that they can figure you out easily doesn't mean they care for your sufferings.


This is one of the best quotes I read on WrongPlanet because it describes my sons so well. They are extremely compassionate.

I wish I remembered who wrote it. It was on a thread where'd I'd asked for help with a presentation about Asperger's I was giving at work.

I'll look back to find out who said it. Got to get the kids off to school now.

Helen

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07 May 2008, 4:59 pm

Yes, Empathy is generally the ability to intuitively understand what someone is going through. Since Aspies don't lack compassion, once we do realize that someone needs help we will help. Fully understanding the situation is not a requirement to be compassionate.


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Greentea
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08 May 2008, 12:12 am

That was one of my best posts on WP, actually. LOL Glad to see it quoted on this thread, because I wouldn't know where to look for it to post it again here. I think I posted it in my "Empathy, not to confuse with compassion" thread a month or two back. I think it turned out a great thread, and if anyone can find it, I recommend it. My goal was to bust the common, wrong myth assumption that since Aspies can't intuitively grasp what you feel, they couldnt'possibly feel compassion and act on compassion for you. So wrong, and so unfair ! !! !! !! !!


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Greentea
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08 May 2008, 12:17 am

There, found it.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt57293.html


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BrutalRhubarb
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08 May 2008, 12:58 am

I'm a little foggy on real-life translations of this concept, so what if...

I'm playing poker with a few friends and someone else walks in and I offer them a place at the table? Common compassion?

A friend is coping with a suicide and I offer advice? Empathy or compassion?

A friend jokes about and eventually threatens suicide, but I fail to find a proper course of action, in a heated moment? Lack of empathy?

These aren't hypotheticals, because I couldn't think of any. Sorry it sounds so dreary, but after the second example, it seemed appropriate to continue on that theme. Not even sure if I'm touching on the right ideas here, someone help me sort out this post I was aiming for. Thanks.



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08 May 2008, 3:11 am

Chimchar wrote:
I'm going to cry now. When I read that, I feel like the symptom of autism is being insensitive and cruel.


I have thought of aspies and empathy a lot. Chimchar, don't despair. You have a different way of understanding. Your way is logic....how would I like someone to treat me if I were in that situation?

You have a different way of acting but it is as legitmate as any NT. You may be blind to many NT emotions and that may make you appear insensitive. But you are not cruel and your sensitivies are different, not lacking.

Robyn


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I think there must be some chronic learning disability that is so prevalent among NT's that it goes unnoticed by the "experts". Krex


Last edited by nannarob on 08 May 2008, 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

nannarob
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08 May 2008, 3:14 am

Greentea wrote:
Yes. Empathy is an intuitive grasp of what the other is feeling and needs, what their interest / motivation is at a specific moment. It's not a conscious mental process, so it has nothing to do with experience or practice and the bearer of the intuition will not know why they acted a certain way. It just felt like the right thing to do.


This is an excellent description, as is the one that Smelena posted.

Most of my thoughts on aspie empathy has been guided by Krex and Greentea.


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I think there must be some chronic learning disability that is so prevalent among NT's that it goes unnoticed by the "experts". Krex


Greentea
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08 May 2008, 4:56 am

thanks, Nanna!

Brutal, I'll try to give an example from my observation. When my sister (NT par excellence) enters a room where some people are gathered chatting, small talking, grabbing a bite and a drink together and just being happy (or pretending to be), even if she hardly knows those people, she'll turn to the person sitting next to her and show interest asking a couple simple questions like how's your mom doing, and bingo! she knows what that person needs to hear most at that moment. She conquers their hearts in seconds, wins their almost blind following her, without knowing how she did it. She just felt the other would be pleased no end if she offered them her old, barely-functioning stove. This is EMPATHY. Later she uses, abuses, misuses this person at will, ignores them when they need her most, betrays them, etc. As she told me, she's not interested in relationships of genuine caring with humans, only in "having the right contacts". This is [lack of] COMPASSION.


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Greentea
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08 May 2008, 5:03 am

PS: I hope it's clear I'm not saying all NTs are cruel and self-serving, like my sister. I just gave an extreme example of the difference between empathy and compassion, for major clarity.


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