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twoshots
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03 Jun 2008, 2:23 pm

merr wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
merr wrote:
ascan wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Some are making a genetic argument here, and I'm wondering how serious they are. Aren't women known for being stingier tippers than men? Would you attribute that to genetic differences as well?

Well, most male and female differences are genetic, obviously. I understand that if you carry out certain tests to measure various aspects of cognitive function, then the pattern of results will be distinct for each sex. Possibly that's related to hormones. It's not a huge leap from there to speculate that those diferences could play a role in behaviour, which may include the willingness to tip. You can say the same about various races. The problem is that most people are unwilling to consider things from that angle because they're brainwashed by the media and government in the name of "equality" to believe that sex and race are meaningless.
Oh my go- So then the reason why eastern european women are more submissive than western european women MUST be due to hormones or genetic differences. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW!!


I'm not trying to be mean here, but learn proper argumentation. Ascan made a valid point about the possibility of gender differences having an impact on behavior, and you made an invalid comparison about an unrelated behavior. The fact that gender differences may be responsible for one behavior, does not mean that they are responsible for all behaviors. The more submissive behavior of Eastern European women has absolutely no bearing on the generosity, or lack there of, of American women, but bringing it up allows you to get all sarcastic because you were told something you didn't want to hear, which ironically enough was partially the point of Ascan's post. This is elementary logic, something that I find notably lacking here sometimes...
I dont feel that I need to prove myself in argumentation with ascan acutally, because if you have been here long enough, you would know that he is desperately searching for genetic differences between races so that he can have an argument for segregation/superiority. I've come to the point where everything that follows those arguments sounds so utterly ridiculous that it makes me laugh. I think oscuria and have a point however. It's what your parents teach you and really has nothing to do with race and little to do with gender, and possible A LOT to do with what you believe about or even if you know the tipping or the paying practices of individual restaurant chains.

Do back that up. My impression is that current trends tend away from blank slate views of human behavior. No one thinks that all behavior is genetic, but it is my impression that many of the behavioral differences between men and women are believed to be innate. Tabula Rasa is not held in high esteem anymore.

Not that I'm familiar with any gender instincts with regard to tipping...


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merr
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03 Jun 2008, 2:36 pm

twoshots wrote:
merr wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
merr wrote:
ascan wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Some are making a genetic argument here, and I'm wondering how serious they are. Aren't women known for being stingier tippers than men? Would you attribute that to genetic differences as well?

Well, most male and female differences are genetic, obviously. I understand that if you carry out certain tests to measure various aspects of cognitive function, then the pattern of results will be distinct for each sex. Possibly that's related to hormones. It's not a huge leap from there to speculate that those diferences could play a role in behaviour, which may include the willingness to tip. You can say the same about various races. The problem is that most people are unwilling to consider things from that angle because they're brainwashed by the media and government in the name of "equality" to believe that sex and race are meaningless.
Oh my go- So then the reason why eastern european women are more submissive than western european women MUST be due to hormones or genetic differences. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW!!


I'm not trying to be mean here, but learn proper argumentation. Ascan made a valid point about the possibility of gender differences having an impact on behavior, and you made an invalid comparison about an unrelated behavior. The fact that gender differences may be responsible for one behavior, does not mean that they are responsible for all behaviors. The more submissive behavior of Eastern European women has absolutely no bearing on the generosity, or lack there of, of American women, but bringing it up allows you to get all sarcastic because you were told something you didn't want to hear, which ironically enough was partially the point of Ascan's post. This is elementary logic, something that I find notably lacking here sometimes...
I dont feel that I need to prove myself in argumentation with ascan acutally, because if you have been here long enough, you would know that he is desperately searching for genetic differences between races so that he can have an argument for segregation/superiority. I've come to the point where everything that follows those arguments sounds so utterly ridiculous that it makes me laugh. I think oscuria and have a point however. It's what your parents teach you and really has nothing to do with race and little to do with gender, and possible A LOT to do with what you believe about or even if you know the tipping or the paying practices of individual restaurant chains.

Do back that up. My impression is that current trends tend away from blank slate views of human behavior. No one thinks that all behavior is genetic, but it is my impression that many of the behavioral differences between men and women are believed to be innate. Tabula Rasa is not held in high esteem anymore.

Not that I'm familiar with any gender instincts with regard to tipping...
I'm not familar with it either. Someone mentioned it on another page of this thread. It could be argued that differences between genders are taught or inferred by society. Maternal instincts (desires to take care of others) might play a role with women in tipping, but social acceptance may play a role with men, demonstrating status or wealth if a man tips extremely well. I did a search on gender and tipping, and I found this article:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 2/art00011

Quote:
The practice of paying gratuities for services is a worldwide custom. Tipping is found only in some professions, which suggests that it serves to increase the efficiency of specific kinds of exchanges. The literature accepts the view that monitoring of employees by customers appears to be the logical rationale for the practice of tipping. This can be seen in that gratuities are paid at the discretion of consumers after they receive the services for which they are paying. However, it does not explain why, given the voluntary aspect of tipping, rational people would not free-ride on the tipping of others. We found that both men and women free-ride in their tipping behavior. Yet, we also found that men are more influenced by social acceptance or approval in their tipping behavior than are women.



merr
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03 Jun 2008, 3:04 pm

Dox47 wrote:
peebo wrote:
not really. your argument, and ascan's argument, is that differences in behaviour can be a result of genetic differences between race/gender. ascan at least was not speaking about any specific behaviour, but making a more general point.

you never answered my previous question. are you suggesting that all black people are poor tippers, or only those who identify with urban culture. since you implied that identification with urban culture may be the deciding factor in your theory on tipping, but clearly not all black people identify with urban culture.


You may disagree with Me or Ascan's points, but Merr's argument was still totally invalid.


.
Ascan's argument: there are differences in tipping practices because of genetic differences in races (read:groups of people with specific inherited traits like skin tone, hair texture, facial features)

My argument: cultural differences influence tipping practices.

A person can live in a cutlure and still keep different practices if they are isolated enough. For example, the russian population in my state remain relatively culturally different than the germanic-english population that makes up the large part of white America. It is CULTURE that affects their behavior (i.e. believing in dominant male roles and submissive female roles despite the gender equality beliefs around them). Similarly, racial differences are merely cultural differences, as even minority groups living in a majority society may keep certain beliefs that are passed down through heresay, social learning, etc.



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03 Jun 2008, 3:29 pm

merr wrote:
hmm, I wasnt addressing you in my post. I dont feel that I need to prove myself in argumentation with ascan actually, because if you have been here long enough, you would know that he is desperately searching for genetic differences between races so that he can have an argument for segregation/superiority. I've come to the point where everything that follows those arguments sounds so utterly ridiculous that it makes me laugh. I think oscuria and the Chosen One have a point however. It's what your parents teach you and really has nothing to do with race and little to do with gender, and possibly A LOT to do with what you believe about or even if you know the tipping or the paying practices of individual restaurant chains. For example, my brother worked at Chili's as a teen and told us that they were only paid $2 per hour and the rest was made through tips. No one in the family knew that- no one in my family has worked in food service.

I would say delivery service is a whole other topic, because many people do not tip delivery men here. In fact where I live barely anyone does that, and my town is 90% white. The delivery boy told my dad that he makes his money off of tips, and my dad repsonded with "I didnt even realize that." It doesnt say to tip when you call in for a pizza, and most delivery people just leave without saying anything.

And it doesnt make a lot of sense on your part to say that people who dont have enough money to tip shouldnt be ordering out in the first place. What gives you the moral right to judge what they do with their money? I mean, if you want to say that then it's reasonable to say that there are better paying jobs out there, and it might benefit you to do that instead.


I was simply pointing out in the context of this thread, that you where making an invalid comparison. I wasn't really interested in who was right or wrong on the subject, but that you were arguing incorrectly. Whether or not Ascan has a history of advancing arguments on a particular subject is also irrelevant, since I was only discussing the one post and exchange.

I am aware of the ignorance gap when it comes to tipping delivery drivers, that's why I post in places like this, or support Tip the Pizza Guy. Most chains prohibit their employees from even mentioning tips, upon pain of a first violation termination. They are afraid that customers would be offended if it was brought to their attention.

As to people who are too poor to tip; if they can't afford the tip, they can't afford the food, it's that simple. At my current job, a large pepperoni is $18.65 delivered. If you can afford to pay that much for one pizza, you should be able to afford the $3-4 tip. If that little money is going to break your budget, you should be down at Mickey D's ordering off the dollar menu, or at the grocery store buying real food. Prepared food delivered to your doorstep is a luxury, a luxury you should be prepared to pay for.

As for people who culturally don't tip, or don't believe in tipping, they are free to do as they choose. However, they lose any and all right to complain about poor service if they make a habit out of it. They have the right to not tip, and I have the right to give them exactly what kind of service they have paid for.



ascan
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03 Jun 2008, 4:34 pm

merr wrote:
...if you have been here long enough, you would know that he is desperately searching for genetic differences between races so that he can have an argument for segregation/superiority...


A few points to consider, merr. Firstly, you'll see that my posts in this thread use words such as "speculate", "may", "possibly" and "suggest". If you note the context in which each is used this may help you to form a more accurate picture of my position and intent. Next, I don't need to search desperately for genetic differences between races because that there are genetic differences is a widely acknowledged fact. That leads on to superiority, and I'm not a white supremacist, if that's where you're coming from. However, I do accept that, on average, some races are better than others at certain tasks, and that's related to those genetic differences. Finally, I don't think I've ever argued for segregation, although I'd freely admit that if enough people of non northern European ancestry moved into the village where I live, then I'd move out.

I hope that's clear.



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03 Jun 2008, 6:05 pm

ascan wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Some are making a genetic argument here, and I'm wondering how serious they are. Aren't women known for being stingier tippers than men? Would you attribute that to genetic differences as well?

Well, most male and female differences are genetic, obviously. I understand that if you carry out certain tests to measure various aspects of cognitive function, then the pattern of results will be distinct for each sex. Possibly that's related to hormones. It's not a huge leap from there to speculate that those diferences could play a role in behaviour, which may include the willingness to tip. You can say the same about various races. The problem is that most people are unwilling to consider things from that angle because they're brainwashed by the media and government in the name of "equality" to believe that sex and race are meaningless.

This theory might have had potential (politically correct or not) except that genetically most African Americans are as European in ancestry as they are African if not more so. We consider them black because even a hint of black pigmentation and other African physical features suggests blackness to us. Being an African American has as much to do with culture as it has to do with physical features.

A much more important question is what sociological and psychological factors make African Americans more likely to be stingy tippers (if that is indeed true)?



twoshots
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03 Jun 2008, 6:42 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
ascan wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Some are making a genetic argument here, and I'm wondering how serious they are. Aren't women known for being stingier tippers than men? Would you attribute that to genetic differences as well?

Well, most male and female differences are genetic, obviously. I understand that if you carry out certain tests to measure various aspects of cognitive function, then the pattern of results will be distinct for each sex. Possibly that's related to hormones. It's not a huge leap from there to speculate that those diferences could play a role in behaviour, which may include the willingness to tip. You can say the same about various races. The problem is that most people are unwilling to consider things from that angle because they're brainwashed by the media and government in the name of "equality" to believe that sex and race are meaningless.

This theory might have had potential (politically correct or not) except that genetically most African Americans are as European in ancestry as they are African if not more so. We consider them black because even a hint of black pigmentation and other African physical features suggests blackness to us. Being an African American has as much to do with culture as it has to do with physical features.

Umm..I know there is huge mixture in the lineage of African Americans with Europeans, but I'm wondering if you have a source that most are as European as African. This seems a bit of an exaggeration to me.


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03 Jun 2008, 8:42 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
What about if the waiter keeps ignoring you when you try to get their attention? I would consider that poor service.


yes, thats actually happened to me a few times, and somehow it's aways on the rare occasion that i have been out with a woman. when that happens, i generally just get up and leave the establishment. if the table staff can't actually even be bothered to come and bring me the bill and collect my money, then i don't feel bad at all about walking out without paying. i'm really not going to sit about all night like some fool waiting for them to bring me the bill even 15 or 20 minutes after i have asked for it. somehow it only seems to be in chain places this happens. smaller places there
seems to be a certain level of respect for the place and they always have much better service. at least in my opinion anyway. when it comes to piccolo, (a small family run local joint) versus, say, pizza express i know where i would much rather go any day of the week.


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03 Jun 2008, 9:07 pm

Dox47 wrote:
merr wrote:
Do a lot of people know you're supposed to tip delivery men?? I always tip 10-15% in restaurants.


In the US that is low, 18-20+% is normal these days for good sit down service. Delivery people would like to see 15%, though a good rule of thumb is at least the cost of 1 gallon of gas. $5 is usually good on any order up to about $40 too. The other pet peeve of delivery drivers is that any delivery charge on the order does not go to the driver! The store does that so that they don't have to raise menu prices, because they are scared of losing the cheapskate market, and customers often take the DC out of the driver's tip. They keep the delivery charge, and give the driver a pittance for gasoline and maintenance.


if i order a pizza and pay with credit card... i ask them whether the tip (on the card bill) goes to them or what. usually try to pay cash but if i'm tight at the time, i'll still ask them (and would still give it to them) rather than just put it all on the card.


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04 Jun 2008, 3:28 am

NeantHumain wrote:
This theory might have had potential (politically correct or not) except that genetically most African Americans are as European in ancestry as they are African if not more so. We consider them black because even a hint of black pigmentation and other African physical features suggests blackness to us.

I see what you mean, NeantHumain, but I'd question the use of the word "most" as I'd expect there's a tendency for humans to reproduce preferentially with those of a similar racial background. Indeed, that preference would have been exaggerated up until fairly recently by various societal factors. Anyway, even if your assertion is correct, surely if race-specific features such as skin colour are still recognisable, then behavioural ones may also be apparent?