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Do you think oil prices are justified?
Yes 39%  39%  [ 12 ]
No 61%  61%  [ 19 ]
Total votes : 31

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06 Jun 2008, 11:00 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Maybe not. I also can't see why we should be paying so much for oil when the big companies are making massive and obscene profits on it.

We should be paying so much for oil because that is the market price of oil. If you don't like it, don't buy it. The fact that the big companies are earning high profits is only a temporary phenomenon, and really you seem to be advocating some very odd views here. The value of a good is not inherent in itself, nor is it related to production costs—the labor theory of value is crap and was discarded long ago. Oil's price is determined by how much demand there is compared to how much supply, not by the cost of procuring it.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:13 pm

Simple supply and demand.

Demand has out stripped supply, so the price goes up. :shrug:

As the oil runs out it is just going to get more expensive.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
And I would consider most of your comments on this thread to be stupid things to say. You have been advocating for more government control and less personal freedom, such systems of government are currently dominant in the places I mentioned. I was merely suggesting that you exercise the FREEDOM that this country gives you to find someplace more to your liking. The Soviet Union may have been better, but they collapsed. Why? Because socialism and totalitarianism are sh***y ways of organizing society.


If you're going to invole the Soviet Union, I'm going to invoke Nicaragua. Both extremes lead to bad results.

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oscuria wrote:
The difference between corruption and complete government control, compared to the control that I would like to see is pretty wide. Unless you like to have all the pornography, all the ignorant and mind wasteful television shows and stupid, critical broadcasts which does nothing but foment hate for one's own neighbors. In fact, this is how it is. People like to say "I'm free, I have all the liberty" while their neighbor is involved in a drunk-driving accident, their child kills himself due to a loaded gun being found in his friends house, and sleeping on the same bed with an adulterous wife because people shouldn't say anything against their lifestyle.

Little thing called "personal responsibility." I know you liberals/commies/whatever you want to call yourself don't believe in it, but at a certain point people need to stop being children and look after themselves.


I'm confused by this counter. While I view laws about adultery and tv shows as stupid, I DO feel that there should be laws about keeping loaded guns where children can get at them (doesn't have to be a specific law, could just fall under a general child-negligence rule) and drunk driving. I suspect that you were just dismissing oscuria's stuff in general though, and not suggesting legalizing actual crimes. Could you clarify?



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06 Jun 2008, 11:19 pm

Speckles wrote:
If you're going to invole the Soviet Union, I'm going to invoke Nicaragua. Both extremes lead to bad results.

What happened in Nicaragua? Or are you referring to Chile under Pinochet?

Speckles wrote:
Quote:
Little thing called "personal responsibility." I know you liberals/commies/whatever you want to call yourself don't believe in it, but at a certain point people need to stop being children and look after themselves.


I'm confused by this counter. While I view laws about adultery and tv shows as stupid, I DO feel that there should be laws about keeping loaded guns where children can get at them (doesn't have to be a specific law, could just fall under a general child-negligence rule) and drunk driving. I suspect that you were just dismissing oscuria's stuff in general though, and not suggesting legalizing actual crimes. Could you clarify?

OK, if you do something that harms someone else (ie cause an automobile accident, not pay enough attention to keep your own child safe) you should be held liable for that. Hence "personal responsibility." I was dismissing oscuria's stuff in general because he was essentially invoking all perceived social ills as caused by libertarianism, and offering totalitarianism as our savior from this degenerate world. :roll: Legalizing actual "crimes" depends on how you define crime. I define crime as something which harms another person without their consent. Oscuria defines it pretty much as anything he dislikes or considers immoral.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:21 pm

MR_BOGAN wrote:
Simple supply and demand.

Demand has out stripped supply, so the price goes up. :shrug:

As the oil runs out it is just going to get more expensive.
Oil isn't going to run out. We are being ripped off. Even when the world price of oil goes down, we very rarely see much of a dip in price at the petrol bowsers. On a side note, why are so many big gas guzzling SUVs and "Toorak Tractors" selling if petrol price is such a big concern?

To those who say we should trust to "the market", "the market" is just as big a tyrant as a dictatorship. You need some government intervention to protect people from being ripped off by large corporations and bosses.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:27 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Oil isn't going to run out. We are being ripped off. Even when the world price of oil goes down, we very rarely see much of a dip in price at the petrol bowsers. On a side note, why are so many big gas guzzling SUVs and "Toorak Tractors" selling if petrol price is such a big concern?

Right, and the US has refining problems, especially as each state has it's own mix of gasoline that works. As well, it is everyone else who complains about gas prices. Your point is valid, the squeeze obviously isn't that big and is thus somewhat hyped.
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To those who say we should trust to "the market", "the market" is just as big a tyrant as a dictatorship. You need some government intervention to protect people from being ripped off by large corporations and bosses.

The market is not the same as a dictatorship in functioning though, technically, we could call any constraint to be tyrannical, the issue is how necessary the overall constraints are.



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06 Jun 2008, 11:32 pm

Well, the way I see it, "the market" is given way more respect as an arbiter in society than it deserves. There are certain things that cannot be produced at much or any of a profit but are yet necessary to assure the smooth running of a society - most of these come under the heading of public services and public utilities.

If one went purely by "the market" and "self interest", we would see people living on the streets, dying of totally curable infections and other conditions because they can't afford to see a doctor, having no hope in life because they'll never get a job; and the list goes on. But wait, isn't that what life is like in the good old USA already?


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06 Jun 2008, 11:36 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Well, the way I see it, "the market" is given way more respect as an arbiter in society than it deserves. There are certain things that cannot be produced at much or any of a profit but are yet necessary to assure the smooth running of a society - most of these come under the heading of public services and public utilities.

Well, the issue with those services you speak of is not because the desire is not strong enough, but rather because of issues of organizing such a system.
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If one went purely by "the market" and "self interest", we would see people living on the streets, dying of totally curable infections and other conditions because they can't afford to see a doctor, having no hope in life because they'll never get a job; and the list goes on. But wait, isn't that what life is like in the good old USA already?

Ok. The issue really ends up being an analytical framework for best understanding the idea.



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06 Jun 2008, 11:41 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Oil isn't going to run out.

There is a finite quantity of oil.
The_Chosen_One wrote:
On a side note, why are so many big gas guzzling SUVs and "Toorak Tractors" selling if petrol price is such a big concern?

Because the people buying those vehicles are willing to pay the high price for fuel.

The_Chosen_One wrote:
To those who say we should trust to "the market", "the market" is just as big a tyrant as a dictatorship. You need some government intervention to protect people from being ripped off by large corporations and bosses.

No, not really. The Austrian claim is that monopolistic behavior can't really succeed unless it serves the best interests of the market. I don't see why we need government to protect us from corporations (which typically have more government power than we do anyways) when there's always another corporation willing to undercut them if they can till earn a profit.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:41 pm

Orwell wrote:
Speckles wrote:
As a side note, I'm a bit annoyed by the false dichotomy of libertarianism or fascism being advanced in this thread. It isn't only one or the other, and presenting the issue like that is a strawman. There are an infinate number of positions between those two extremes.

Yes, but those of us debating are closer to the outside than to the middle, so it makes sense to debate the positions that are actually held by the parties to this discussion.


Okay, that makes sense. Sorry for assuming.

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Speckles wrote:
I agree with oscuria that an attempt at a pure libertarian society would be just as flawed as attempts at pure communism. Ideologies don't make for good governments.

I disagree, perhaps slightly dependent on how you are defining a "pure libertarian society." I'm minarchist, AG is anarchist, but both "libertarian." Until society is close to how I would like to see it (very little government), AG and I are mostly on the same side. We were arguing mainly that more liberty, which we are advocating, would be better than less, which oscuria is promoting. A socialistic system needn't be pure communism to be flawed, it need only be socialistic. You do realize that the amazing abundance which makes socialism look feasible was produced only by centuries of capitalism? The prosperity, the advancement, all of it is a product of the free market, and socialism would bring all those centuries of progress to naught.


Oh, I think it would be idiotic to do away with capitalism, in most cases it really is the best system. Not perfect, but nothing is. I'll also agree with the centuries of capitalism being one of the major factors to the prosperity of today - I don't know if you'd remember, but I actually defended sweatshops in another thread on pretty much those grounds. I just feel that some aspects of society are better handled in a socialist manner. Like the military - IMO the scandals with Blackwater have proved that Rumsfield's idea of an outsourced military is kind of stupid. Or long-term disease research, because the incentives are messed up for private industry. Or for big projects like giant bridges or dams, which generally benefit society as a whole but are practically impossible to make money on. I personally would be willing to give up some of my theoretical liberty in order to gain the benefits of programs like those.



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06 Jun 2008, 11:42 pm

Driving home and listening to the radio today, the economists all agreed that the $11 spike in a barrel of oil in one day was completely unrelated to market fundamentals of supply and demand, which really didn't change today. They mentioned two factors - the drop of the dollar, and speculators.

Between the producer and the consumer lies the commodity futures market. The amount of money going into the futures market has shot through the ceiling in the past decade. People know that if they buy oil future contracts, and the price keeps going up, they can turn a nice profit when the contract matures. Just like buying a house on speculation - pay $X now, sell for $1.5X when the house is finished.

Of course, the price of oil may not keep going up forever, and we may see a lot of investors get burned. In the mean time, increased demand (by speculators) is driving up the price of oil, just as increased demand drove the price of houses up. Towards the end of the housing bubble, some financial advisors were suggesting that people might rent instead of buying - and that was good advice. So, assuming that the price of oil will eventually collapse back to its equillibrium price, I am advising you to postpone filling your tank. Renting gasoline is not an option, but the bus, the bicycle, and sleeping in your cubicle may be needed until the most fair and rational market system imaginable corrects itself. Judging by the dot-com bubble and the housing bubble, you shouldn't have to wait more than a few years, maybe less.



Last edited by monty on 06 Jun 2008, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Jun 2008, 11:45 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Well, the way I see it, "the market" is given way more respect as an arbiter in society than it deserves. There are certain things that cannot be produced at much or any of a profit but are yet necessary to assure the smooth running of a society - most of these come under the heading of public services and public utilities.

Capitalism can still allow for public provision of such things. Adam Smith advocated that in Wealth of Nations.

The_Chosen_One wrote:
If one went purely by "the market" and "self interest", we would see people living on the streets, dying of totally curable infections and other conditions because they can't afford to see a doctor, having no hope in life because they'll never get a job; and the list goes on. But wait, isn't that what life is like in the good old USA already?

Not very commonly, no. And laissez-faire capitalism is the best method for generating enough prosperity to lift even the poorest members of society out of the worst troubles.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:48 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
Simple supply and demand.

Demand has out stripped supply, so the price goes up. :shrug:

As the oil runs out it is just going to get more expensive.
Oil isn't going to run out. We are being ripped off. Even when the world price of oil goes down, we very rarely see much of a dip in price at the petrol bowsers. On a side note, why are so many big gas guzzling SUVs and "Toorak Tractors" selling if petrol price is such a big concern?

To those who say we should trust to "the market", "the market" is just as big a tyrant as a dictatorship. You need some government intervention to protect people from being ripped off by large corporations and bosses.


Government intervention invading was invading Iraq. :lol:

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Lots of predictions say we are reaching peck oil production. I hate to break it to you it is running out.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:51 pm

Speckles wrote:
Oh, I think it would be idiotic to do away with capitalism, in most cases it really is the best system. Not perfect, but nothing is. I'll also agree with the centuries of capitalism being one of the major factors to the prosperity of today - I don't know if you'd remember, but I actually defended sweatshops in another thread on pretty much those grounds.

I agree so far. I got quite the reaction in my AP World History class when I defended child labor in third-world sweatshops.
Speckles wrote:
I just feel that some aspects of society are better handled in a socialist manner. Like the military - IMO the scandals with Blackwater have proved that Rumsfield's idea of an outsourced military is kind of stupid. Or long-term disease research, because the incentives are messed up for private industry. Or for big projects like giant bridges or dams, which generally benefit society as a whole but are practically impossible to make money on. I personally would be willing to give up some of my theoretical liberty in order to gain the benefits of programs like those.

OK. Those types of things are why I'm a minarchist, rather than an anarchist like AG. I take a more Smithian view where I acknowledge the usefulness of government in certain specific spheres, such as military, justice, and public works/infrastructure. Even so, I'll side more with AG in these debates because we both want more liberty than there currently is, so the differences between the two of us are relatively minor in practical terms.


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06 Jun 2008, 11:59 pm

Orwell wrote:
Speckles wrote:
If you're going to invole the Soviet Union, I'm going to invoke Nicaragua. Both extremes lead to bad results.

What happened in Nicaragua? Or are you referring to Chile under Pinochet?


Roughly the same thing that happened to Chile, except democracy stayed around for longer and things went comparitively worse. It's a better example of Friedman's economics being applied in a stupid idealistic way IMO then Chile is. If you can stand to read the Shock Doctrine, there's a pretty good summary in there.



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07 Jun 2008, 12:05 am

Speckles wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Speckles wrote:
If you're going to invole the Soviet Union, I'm going to invoke Nicaragua. Both extremes lead to bad results.

What happened in Nicaragua? Or are you referring to Chile under Pinochet?


Roughly the same thing that happened to Chile, except democracy stayed around for longer and things went comparitively worse. It's a better example of Friedman's economics being applied in a stupid idealistic way IMO then Chile is. If you can stand to read the Shock Doctrine, there's a pretty good summary in there.

Lucky me, I'm not a Friedmanite. I tend to be more Vienna than Chicago.

Dunno what it is about Latin America, but no system they try ever seems to work. I think the issue may be more in the political instability than in the actual theory of the systems they are trying to implement. They've written constitutions that codify democratic republican forms of government and still failed, but this doesn't necessarily refute republicanism. It just means Latin America did a poor job of implementing it.


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