Asperger Syndrome vs. Borderline Personality Disorder

Page 9 of 11 [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

Mysty
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,762

11 May 2010, 1:25 pm

Poke wrote:
Oh dear--you are all over the map.

Let me quote the whole of the post in question, which really should need no further explanation:

Quote:
Autism represents a "spectrum" that fades into what you might call "neurotypicality".

What might someone on the borderline of neurotypicality be like?

Might such a person have enough social ability to initiate relationships, but not maintain them?


What are the core features of autism? Restricted activities/interests and ability to socialize.

Since autism represents a "spectrum" that fades into neurotypicality, is it not reasonable to assume that the core features of autism manifest themselves along a parallel "spectrum"? Is it not reasonable to assume that, the closer you are to the "neurotypicality" end of the spectrum, the stronger your socialization abilities are?

Now, once again, what might someone on the borderline of neurotypicality be like? They might have socialization abilities that are close enough to normality to initiate friendships, but not enough to maintain and develop them.

This is all so simple. People just don't understand what autism is. It can be so frustrating.


But what does that have to do with this thread? What does that have to do with how BPD and autism are similiar and different? That's what this thread is about. If you aren't talking about BPD, you shouldn't have posted that here in this thread. If this somehow connects, show us the connection.

Or I can just ignore further posts from you, on grounds that you don't have anything to contribute to this particular discussion.


_________________
not aspie, not NT, somewhere in between
Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now.


hrmpk
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 86

11 May 2010, 3:50 pm

A little late, but....Don't feed trolls.

Mysty, where do those categories of thought come from? To me, the issues at hand seem too complex to be dealt with in such a way.

What's up with the DSMV anyways? Have we all suddenly become normal?

Something to consider, perhaps: where does the person end and the disorder begin?



Last edited by hrmpk on 11 May 2010, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pandd
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,430

11 May 2010, 4:05 pm

Poke wrote:
Autism represents a "spectrum" that fades into what you might call "neurotypicality".

What might someone on the borderline of neurotypicality be like?

Might such a person have enough social ability to initiate relationships, but not maintain them?

People with BPD do not merely fail to do what needs to be done to maintain a relationship, they actively engage in behaviour that destroys relationships. It's not a matter of forgetting to do the "housekeeping" or "handywork" necessary to keep the relationship in "working order", but rather, overtly destructive behaviours that undermine and destablize their relationships with others, particularly close relationships.



Mysty
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,762

11 May 2010, 4:38 pm

hrmpk wrote:
Mysty, where do those categories of thought come from? To me, the issues at hand seem too complex to be dealt with in such a way.


First, from the idea of "wise mind" that's used in BPD therapy. Wise mind being the balance of emotional mind and intellectual/logical mind. (The person with BPD should strive, not to override emotional thinking, but to listen to that part of the mind, and balance that with logical thinking.

And, combined with that, from something I read in reading about autism. It talked about those with autism using "computer thinking" rather than social thinking.

I'm combining the two ideas about different types of thinking, to come up with 3 types of thinking. It may be a simplification, but I'm treating computer thinking and intellectual thinking as one thing. They may really be more like two different subtypes of a type of thinking, but not having a better combined label, I went with "intellectual thinking". Maybe logical thinking would be a better word.

It's certainly not meant to be an complete theory of either AS or BPD. But it's a way of looking at the similarities and differences. Not necessarily the only way. But one that perhaps someone else besides me might find meaningful.

Quote:
What's up with the DSMV anyways? Have we all suddenly become normal?


By "we" do you mean those who might no longer classified as having a disorder in the new version? Depends on one's definition of normal, perhaps. It doesn't mean you aren't different from most folks. It just means that difference isn't considered a disorder.


_________________
not aspie, not NT, somewhere in between
Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now.


marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

20 May 2010, 11:28 am

I don't see how one diagnosis can be mistaken for the other, but it's possible, IMO, for sensitive high functioning autistic people to develop traits of BPD. Though I don't really have the time/energy to go into it fully in one post, I believe that I have some manifestation of BPD.

The issue though is that comparing an autistic person with BPD to an NT with BPD is like comparing apples to oranges. The problem is that the stereotypical NT BPD portrait has some features that nearly exclude the person from having autism. People on the autism spectrum are not as inclined to become emotionally close to other people, at least not very quickly. This social reluctance negates some of the symptoms that would show up for a more typical NT with BPD.

Anyways... I guess my point is people can't be categorized as neatly as these psychologists / experts would like to think. Over-simplistic categorizing and labeling can be insulting to the individual as well. On the other hand I think people should try not to overreact to this and completely dismiss a psychological label / theory / etc.. just because it doesn't fit an individual perfectly or there's a stigma attached to it.

Also, people with BPD likely feel just as misunderstood and hurt by society as we do. They might not like that people view their personality as all negative either, even if it causes them a great deal of suffering.



Kallie
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 24
Location: Canada

19 Jun 2010, 11:49 pm

I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Traits... Not the full disorder because I'm only 16 and it's very very mild to the point where I probably don't really have it, my psychiatrist explains it as trying to put a name to my problems so she gave me that diagnosis to help... I was diagnosed after I was hospitalized, mostly because I couldn't fit a few criteria for Bipolar. It's nothing like Asperger's... There's black and white thinking and social issues but I think that's where it ends. The social issues are different, in BPD they're because the person has identity disturbance and problems trusting people and abandonment issues. With AS the social issues are because they have problems with reading nonverbal things and talk about usually only one thing etc. People with Asperger's aren't suicidal or cut BECAUSE they have AS... You acquire BPD from childhood abuse or traumatic events in childhood. It was once thought to be a variant of Schizophrenia, on the borderline of neurosis and psychosis, which is how it got its name, and it has also been believed to be a variant of PTSD as well. In 2012 it will be called Borderline Type and no longer referred to as a personality disorder. It's not like AS at all... BPD is over expressing yourself, AS is under expressing yourself. It is possible for the two of them to be confused though... I have the BPD diagnosis but am now being tested for AS and tested again to see if I really do have BPD. But they are not the same.



Raziel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,612
Location: Europe

25 May 2012, 9:42 am

I know, it's a bit old, but still interessting:

I haven't read all of this Borderline-Asperger/Autism Discussion now, but I want to add my thoughts.

In Germany (and a lot of other countries) the Diagnoses "Autism" isn't very common now and the most missdiagnosis in this group are Schizophrenia and Borderline. Autistic people show behaviours, what normaly just schizophrnics and Borderline-People show.

Acutually the similarities are huge: selfharming behaviour, problems to controll agression or anger, emotionaly problems, anxiety, feeling of emptiness, problems with the identity, black-and-withe thinking, higher chance of paranoia unter extreme stress etc. have all been observed by autistic people.
What Borderline and Autism have very often in common is a lot of stress and very often it can be very difficult to identify them correctly.
The main difference seems to be that the concept of "personality disorders" how we know it for "neurotypical people" doesn't really work (or just to some degree) for autistic people.
When you put "too much" pressure on an autistic person it might also harm it self etc. but usually doesn't start to manipulate others, want's pitty or doesn't want to be left alone. Those carecteristics are very untypical for autistic people.
We would actually need another concept for autistic people of personality clusters that often occour that can explain some odd behaviour in autistics better.

Athenacapella wrote:
I almost think that any clinician who sees a woman who has social problems as automatically BPD. Aspie women are dramatically undiagnosed.


I totally agree!


_________________
"I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown." - Woody Allen


Raziel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,612
Location: Europe

25 May 2012, 3:16 pm

Callista wrote:
I was misdiagnosed as borderline. I do have two of the characteristics of it (self-injury and meltdowns) but both are better explained by Asperger's... I could see how it could be confused, though, especially since at the time I was assessed I was also depressed, which really lowered my coping skills to an all-time low. (There was the first problem, though: You don't diagnose somebody with a personality disorder and a mood disorder together, until you can figure out which symptoms were life-long and which just came with the mood disorder.)


Yes with me it was similar.
I was also confuced als being Borderline (actually as a lot of times allready). In Germany sadly noone has a clue about Autism what's very anoying even WITH a diagnoses. It just doesn't help. Most psychiatrists think that autistics act a) like Psychopaths or b) are mentally disabeld or something like this.

But I have some problems with meltdowns, I also had a lot by psychiatrists, because I was sooooo terryfied by them not understanding what was going on, they allways talking in a double meaning and everything. It just didn't work and so more they treated me as a "Borderline" the more I behaved like one because of my panic for them. It was a really messed up situation. I'm also Transgender, well, this also added to the confusion, even though I have trouble understanding why. Because I don't fluctuate in my personality, I'm just Transgender that's all.
Then after a time the situation got so bad that I thought about not goning to therapy anymore, eventhough when they started being nice, I was in panic and couldn't really talk anymore. I had difficulties just saying one sentence and looked at the wall. I reacted like LFA in therapy because of my fear. That's where the situation changend more and more, also because I got another Therapiest. Most of the time I didn't say much in Therapy, but I wrote a whole bunch of emails to my therapist, about words, situations and so on, I didn't understand or me being confused about the situation.
Since last time this changed and I could behave a lot more normally, eventhough I was still a bit frightend about the situation.

I'm thankfull for my new therapist who had A LOT of pationence with me. :oops:

And now know that wrong diagnoses can do to you!
(Eventhough I was never officially diagnosed with Borderline or Schizophrenia or anything else than autism, but all that was disscused).


_________________
"I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown." - Woody Allen


Cinnamon
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 209

03 Dec 2012, 6:00 am

I was diagnosed as having BPD traits when I got severely depressed in my mid thirties. I'd never heard of it at that time so I looked it up.

Things that did resemble borderline were:
Cutting,
anger outbursts/meltdowns
low self esteem,
but
I never felt 'empty'.
Was not paranoid or delusional.
I did not have unstable relationships. Not sure if they mean all relationships or only romantic ones. I had been single for about seven years when I got that diagnosis, and before that I had few boyfriends. I never idolized them, and never ended up hating them either. They were nice people. As for non-romantic relationships, I had my family and three friends who I'd been friends with for fifteen years or so, but who I did not see often.
I never did anything risky like gambling, driving fast, using drugs or alcohol and stuff. I am always very cautious.
And I did not mind being left alone. In fact, I reckoned that my depression was partly caused by not being left alone enough! :lol: I love being alone, and always have.

So I did not think I had BPD, and I thought the therapist should not even have mentioned it if I had so few symptoms. Anger outbursts and low self esteem are problems that occur in many conditions, and they are not typical for BPD. So I think he only diagnosed me based on the cutting, and perhaps on my gender. It did not instill any trust in me.



Noetic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,277
Location: UK

03 Dec 2012, 12:45 pm

LostInSpace wrote:
My friend's interests for example, might involve taking up a cause passionately, but briefly. It's not like she is obsessed with say, politics, and spends all her time thinking about politics and talking about politics. Rather it's like she chooses something to base her personality around for a period of time, before latching onto something else.

That's interesting, I too have a friend with BPD and have sometimes wondered if there might not be some Aspie traits in there, due to her interests and the way she goes completely and utterly overboard with them each time (usually getting into financial trouble as a result). The identity thing, the interests being what they base their personality around at the time, is true, I hadn't thought of that.

Although to some degree, my interests too dictate how I behave to some degree, for example when I had an interest in politics I only read and wrote about political stuff online, and joined a local party and was quite active at the time, but as soon as the interest waned I lost all interest in even talking to the same people, which given that I only have a few social contacts, wasn't really good. I definitely don't have any of the abandonment issues and feelings of emptiness associated with BPD though.

Even as a small child my interests rather influenced my sense of self though, for example when I was into collecting rocks, I would go around announcing to all the parents in the playground that I was a rock now, the same for lorries and a Fisher Price cash till that I loved to play with - if someone else was playing with it in playgroup, I would just "be" the till myself and go around telling parents to pull the lever (my arm) and feed me coins etc.



Last edited by Noetic on 03 Dec 2012, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,439
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

03 Dec 2012, 12:48 pm

pwjb wrote:
So what is the need for two different diagnosis that in fact are the same. And Wikipedia puts no word for clearing this issue.


They aren't the same, they are different disorders.


_________________
We won't go back.


argyle
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 57

03 Dec 2012, 6:19 pm

There are many ways to look at this particular bit of reality. Here's mine. It is simplified. The truth is that the brain is programmed in hardware...so there's no clear division between hardware and software.

Personality disorders (PD)...as a group...are maladaptive behaviors and ways of thinking and perceiving. They vary a lot, but commonly include low empathy, black and white thinking, shame, and problems with emotional control. This includes BPD. And, BPDs can develop social issues stemming from their behaviors and inability to understand normal thought processes. PD can include social butterflies who cut themselves and attempt suicide a lot. PD can also include zero-empathy workaholics who throw temper tantrums.

AS...is hardware. (Here, I am referring to autistic tendencies rather than diagnostic critera for the disorder.) It also varies a lot. Autistic tendencies commonly includes low empathy, black and white thinking, shame, and problems with emotional control. It is important to realize that AS commonly involves either low emotional arousal or high emotional arousal (highly sensitive personality). And AS can develop abandonment issues stemming from their difficulties nurturing social relationships. AS can include silent introverts who obsess about Star Trek. AS can also include zero-empathy workaholics who throw temper tantrums.

My belief (and at least one study echos this belief) is that undiagnosed AS (highly sensitive) is a strong risk factor for BPD. Basically, AS are more likely to resort to maladaptive behaviors and suffer more stress than NTs. I believe that low arousal AS are unlikely to develop BPD. For some reason, this seems (no real data) to be particularly true for women.

On a personal note, my wife spent many years believing that all of the problems in her life came about because everyone else in her world had AS. She was eventually diagnosed with BPD/NPD. (what with the violent rages, constant blame, abandonment issues...). Recently, she's realized that the recurrent speech issues, low empathy, ritualistic behavior, ... are indicative of at least some AS traits. And she's calmed down a lot.

So, yes, BPD/NPD/AS can look really similar. And yes, AS can lead to BPD.

Treatment?

In terms of treatment, AS and BPD both respond well to DBT and poorly to drugs. Being misdiagnosed with depression or bipolar is more problematic.

What could be better?

Well, being aware of one's AS traits really helps understanding - which helps decrease anxiety. So, therapists doing at least some tests for AS traits as part of any therapy with a BPD and incorporating those results into treatment would probably help a lot.

--Argyle

Now, the fact that BPD and AS have similar prevalances, but opposite male-female distributions is quite interesting - not proof of anything, but interesting.



katzefrau
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,835
Location: emerald city

03 Dec 2012, 11:10 pm

argyle wrote:
Personality disorders (PD)...as a group...are maladaptive behaviors and ways of thinking and perceiving. They vary a lot, but commonly include low empathy, black and white thinking, shame, and problems with emotional control. This includes BPD. And, BPDs can develop social issues stemming from their behaviors and inability to understand normal thought processes. PD can include social butterflies who cut themselves and attempt suicide a lot. PD can also include zero-empathy workaholics who throw temper tantrums.

AS...is hardware. (Here, I am referring to autistic tendencies rather than diagnostic critera for the disorder.) It also varies a lot. Autistic tendencies commonly includes low empathy, black and white thinking, shame, and problems with emotional control. It is important to realize that AS commonly involves either low emotional arousal or high emotional arousal (highly sensitive personality). And AS can develop abandonment issues stemming from their difficulties nurturing social relationships. AS can include silent introverts who obsess about Star Trek. AS can also include zero-empathy workaholics who throw temper tantrums.


I think you have some good points here.


argyle wrote:
In terms of treatment, AS and BPD both respond well to DBT and poorly to drugs. Being misdiagnosed with depression or bipolar is more problematic.


I may be (and I hope I am) misunderstanding dialectical behavior therapy, but isn't it sort of like "tough love" .. something like undervaluing the patient's emotional displays as a way of demanding that they present in a less melodramatic fashion?

as I said, I hope this is a gross misunderstanding, but if it isn't, I don't see how an ASD patient would respond well to it.


_________________
Now a penguin may look very strange in a living room, but a living room looks very strange to a penguin.


argyle
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 57

03 Dec 2012, 11:46 pm

...a gross misunderstanding.
...the core lessons of DBT are:
acceptance: accepting reality
mindfulness: living in and being aware of the moment
distress tolerance: learning to tolerate, eg, anxiety
social skills training: nonviolent communication, listening
emotion regulation: learning to calm down

...this is only mildly useful for your quiet emotionally withdrawn Aspie. But then, aside from some social skills training - whatcha gonna do? The people in their lives are the ones mostly needing training.

...but it is extremely useful for Aspies who are having trouble coping with anxiety and emotional control (meltdowns)...as mentioned by several people in our Aspie support group. In particular, very useful for Aspie women who spend their whole lives pretending to be normal, feeling horribly ashamed because they aren't, melting down from stress, and falling into anxiety-related depressions. Men do it too...but...possibly less often. Or, it may simply be that anxiety and meltdown-prone men tend to be completely ignored by society.

--Argyle



katzefrau
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,835
Location: emerald city

04 Dec 2012, 12:07 am

argyle wrote:
...a gross misunderstanding.


good. it came from an article about DBT that made it sounds like it consisted of a therapist basically berating their patient into emotional submission.

argyle wrote:
...the core lessons of DBT are:
acceptance: accepting reality
mindfulness: living in and being aware of the moment
distress tolerance: learning to tolerate, eg, anxiety
social skills training: nonviolent communication, listening
emotion regulation: learning to calm down


how is this taught?


_________________
Now a penguin may look very strange in a living room, but a living room looks very strange to a penguin.


Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

04 Dec 2012, 12:14 am

argyle wrote:
So, yes, BPD/NPD/AS can look really similar. And yes, AS can lead to BPD.


Actually, I found a study that indicated that cluster A and C personality disorders are more likely for autistic people with and without ADHD, and that cluster B disorders are more common with ADHD alone.

BPD had the highest prevalence of all four cluster Bs in autistic people, however.

It was a small study, so I wouldn't assume it actually shows accurate percentages, but I think it did point to certain tendencies. I think a statement such as the one you made is overreaching, especially without reference to how many autistic people don't develop PDs at all, or which PDs are more likely to develop in autistic people.