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AspieGirl
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25 Nov 2005, 12:28 pm

It appears that there has been another case of a rage outburst in a young man with Asperger's who was taking Geodon (an atypical anti-psychotic medication). There was a gun involved this time, too, but luckily no one was injured or killed:

Telling Crime From Illness
Dana Parsons
November 16, 2005

The places where cops and the mentally ill meet are often danger zones. For different reasons, neither may know exactly what the other is up to. That uncertainty can produce disastrous consequences.

They can meet, unexpectedly, anywhere. On the street. In a barricaded room. Or, as was the case 10 days ago, in Grandma's backyard in Tustin.

In a way, Nancy Speer's 16-year-old son, Ben, got lucky that day. He showed a gun in the presence of officers and came out alive. Arrested and looking at several felony charges, and a hearing to determine whether he should be charged as a juvenile or an adult, he's in Orange County Juvenile Hall.

Nancy Speer is pleading for a third option. "He needs to be in a mental hospital," she says of her son, who has Asperger's syndrome. "He seems confused and frightened in a jail setting. He's been begging me to get him into a hospital."

Asperger's is the same ailment that plagued William Freund, the 19-year-old Aliso Viejo man who killed two neighbors and then himself late last month. An expert told The Times after that incident that violence is not common with Asperger's.

While insistent that incarceration is wrong for her son, Speer is not sugar-coating what happened that Sunday afternoon. In fact, her account is nearly identical to that given by police:

Speer, Ben and his friend visited her mother in Tustin to discuss a loan that Ben wanted from his grandmother to buy a computer. Ben became convinced that his uncle, who lives with Ben's grandmother but was not home that day, had stolen his grandmother's checkbook. As a manifestation of his confusion, Speer says, her son called police to report the "theft."

Speer feared her son was lapsing into what she calls a mood in which he "breaks with reality." Her fears were warranted; Ben eventually smashed the windows and broke into his uncle's private quarters. Speer, her mother and Ben's friend locked themselves in a room.

Meanwhile, Ben, who is 6 feet 1 and 230 pounds, began shooting up his uncle's room with a gun he found inside it. Speer called 911.

Ten to 15 officers eventually responded, police Lt. Jim Peery says. One of them ordered Ben to drop his gun, but "he turned and was going to shoot at one of the officers." The officer fired a single shot from about 15 yards away that missed Ben. The boy then put down his gun, Peery says.

Peery says he's convinced from police reports that Ben would have killed his uncle and harmed anyone else in the yard.

These are wrenching cases that involve public safety and helping the sick.

"I'm terrified on behalf of my son," Speer says. "He has the emotional capacity of maybe a 7-year-old. He's bright cognitively … but the Asperger's has inhibited him developmentally." A typical person's bad feeling becomes a "very, very bad feeling" for him, she says.

In a problem facing many parents of mentally ill children, medications are meted out on a trial-and-error basis. Ben had been taking Geodon — as William Freund apparently had — for about two months. Since the incident, Speer says, she and his psychiatrist discontinued Geodon and put Ben back on his previous medication, with increased dosage. "He's his old self," Speer says.

He was bullied as a youngster, as is common for those with Asperger's, but his mother says that didn't crush his spirit. She cites as an example that the Autism Society of America paid his way last spring to Sacramento, where he addressed legislators.

For now, Ben appears destined to be but the latest participant in a complicated social enterprise: whether we distinguish criminality from illness.

"I want him helped, however they can help him," Speer says. "If it helps him to go to a youth camp or mental hospital, I want him helped. He's a good soul and has all the potential in the world of being a good adult. He just needs help."


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orang ... ons-orange


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Sophist
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25 Nov 2005, 1:19 pm

Sounds psychotic to me. Like Schizophrenic or Psychotic NOS along with Aspergers.


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anbuend
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25 Nov 2005, 1:31 pm

The "anti-psychotic" drugs themselves make me hallucinate and not think clearly, and I've heard of that happening in others.


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25 Nov 2005, 1:42 pm

These drugs are just another corporate scam. Nobody does anything about it because nobody has the strength anymore to stand up to the corporates.



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25 Nov 2005, 3:07 pm

Quote:
For now, Ben appears destined to be but the latest participant in a complicated social enterprise: whether we distinguish criminality from illness.

First they should distinguish between Aspergers and mental illness,and since when are people "plagued" with a learning disability? again,it's another comparing with illness or disease.


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25 Nov 2005, 6:35 pm

Since when did the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's syndrome include having delusions? That's like saying someone had an aneurysm because they had arthritis. They need to quit confusing AS traits with symtoms from comorbid illnesses because even when someone puts a disclaimer saying that not everyone with AS is violent, all people, with their one track minds, are going to hear is "boy with Asperger's kills" hence AS = killer.


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25 Nov 2005, 6:47 pm

nirrti_rachelle wrote:
Since when did the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's syndrome include having delusions? That's like saying someone had an aneurysm because they had arthritis. They need to quit confusing AS traits with symtoms from comorbid illnesses because even when someone puts a disclaimer saying that not everyone with AS is violent, all people, with their one track minds, are going to hear is "boy with Asperger's kills" hence AS = killer.

It's the drugs. One of the nasty little secrets of the juvenile/adolescent narcotics industry is many (perhaps most) of the teenage spree killers (usually school shootings) were either on, or suffering withdrawal from, anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. Many suburban "senseless murders" can be traced to use of prescription drugs. They puch drugs that aren't very safe for NTs onto NATs and the wonder what they did wrong!

Machloket



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25 Nov 2005, 7:18 pm

Machloket wrote:
It's the drugs. One of the nasty little secrets of the juvenile/adolescent narcotics industry is many (perhaps most) of the teenage spree killers (usually school shootings) were either on, or suffering withdrawal from, anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. Many suburban "senseless murders" can be traced to use of prescription drugs. They puch drugs that aren't very safe for NTs onto NATs and the wonder what they did wrong!

Machloket


I was going to say the same thing... SSRIs and other psychiatric meds have been linked to abrupt violence. This was all known before drugs like Prozac and Pxil were marketed. There is currently a class action lawsuit againt the makers of Paxil due to it severe side effects and hellish withdrawal symptoms.


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25 Nov 2005, 7:33 pm

en_una_isla wrote:
I was going to say the same thing... SSRIs and other psychiatric meds have been linked to abrupt violence. This was all known before drugs like Prozac and Pxil were marketed. There is currently a class action lawsuit againt the makers of Paxil due to it severe side effects and hellish withdrawal symptoms.


Effexor, the anti-depressant I'm taking, has very nasty withdrawal symptoms as well. In fact, they say of all the medications, it happens to have the worst withdrawal symptoms of any psychiatric drug on the market. Unfortunately, I'm going to be going through it pretty soon because the state health care system won't pay for it anymore due to me also being on another anti-depressant since they only allow one.

They didn't even consult my doctor or take into account exactly which of the two drugs I needed most. They just chose it because it's the most expensive and the only medicine I take that doesn't come in generic. I can't afford a month's supply at $250 so now I'm going to suffer tremendously because of their stupidity.


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AspieGirl
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25 Nov 2005, 9:54 pm

nirrti_rachelle wrote:
They didn't even consult my doctor or take into account exactly which of the two drugs I needed most. They just chose it because it's the most expensive and the only medicine I take that doesn't come in generic. I can't afford a month's supply at $250 so now I'm going to suffer tremendously because of their stupidity.


:cry: That just s*cks. I hope it goes ok for you. Make sure to keep in touch with the board during this time -- you know you'll have support here!


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AspieGirl
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25 Nov 2005, 10:09 pm

Machloket wrote:
It's the drugs. One of the nasty little secrets of the juvenile/adolescent narcotics industry is many (perhaps most) of the teenage spree killers (usually school shootings) were either on, or suffering withdrawal from, anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. Many suburban "senseless murders" can be traced to use of prescription drugs. They puch drugs that aren't very safe for NTs onto NATs and the wonder what they did wrong!


Meanwhile, there's a clinical trial happening right now on the effectiveness of ziprasidone (Geodon) for children (aged 12-18!) with autism. >>

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/N ... 9?order=16

I tried emailing the doc in charge of the research after the William Freund shootings and never got any reply. I've just sent him another email with Ben Speer's story. I suppose he won't answer that one, either.

His email address can be found here -- Dr. Richard P. Malone -- if anyone else wants to put some pressure on. >>

http://www.drexel.edu/search/phonebook/default.asp


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25 Nov 2005, 10:21 pm

:x Bleeding heck! This is freaking ridiculous! Honestly... and what's the bet that he didn't even have a choice whether he was put on that medication? And anyone that knows ANYTHING about Aspergers will know that Juvy is NOT where he needs to be! For people who are naturally highly suggestible, Juvy is like saying 'hey, we noticed you have some problems: how about we teach you to have some really HARDCORE issues?'! Grr...!


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26 Nov 2005, 10:30 am

Children and teenagers shouldn't be on antidepressant or antipsychotic dose medications. Their brains are not adults brains and react differently. And I don't think there's been enough trials of such meds on those age ranges.

But psychiatrists are too quick to dole out medications.


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26 Nov 2005, 10:51 am

Sophist wrote:
But psychiatrists are too quick to dole out medications.


Tell me about it. I went to a psychiatrist 6 years ago. Halfway through my first session with this guy, he (mis)diagnoses me with bipolar disorder and starts prescribing like there's no tomorrow. I should have headed for the hills when he not only prescribed DepaBloat, but gave me tips on how to combat the weight gain. This was also the same moron who seemed to be amused at my hatred of the side effects.



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26 Nov 2005, 11:50 am

Sophist wrote:
Children and teenagers shouldn't be on antidepressant or antipsychotic dose medications. Their brains are not adults brains and react differently. And I don't think there's been enough trials of such meds on those age ranges.

But psychiatrists are too quick to dole out medications.


I think you're absolutely right. Agree with you 100%! :?


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26 Nov 2005, 1:07 pm

I always recommend caution with psychiatrists. If you think they're giving you too many meds or too much of a certain med, you're probably right.

I'm not against medications. But I am an advocate of the "lowest dose possible" regimen. Take just enough so your body can learn to do the rest.


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