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What d'ya think?
OMFG. Why did you have to remind me about all that, Sophist?!? 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
OMFG. Why did you have to remind me about all that, Sophist?!? 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Meh. I only live to preserve myself. 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Meh. I only live to preserve myself. 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Meh. I don't even live to preserve myself. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Meh. I don't even live to preserve myself. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Genetic what??? 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Genetic what??? 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I have no idea what "eugenics" is... *wanders off* 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I have no idea what "eugenics" is... *wanders off* 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I THINK THE AUTTIES OF THE WORLD SHOULD UNITE AND START A PETITION SAYING WE WOULD NOT WANT TO BE CURED OR PREVENTED!! ! 19%  19%  [ 7 ]
I THINK THE AUTTIES OF THE WORLD SHOULD UNITE AND START A PETITION SAYING WE WOULD NOT WANT TO BE CURED OR PREVENTED!! ! 19%  19%  [ 7 ]
Hey, that petition thing's a good idea. :D 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
Hey, that petition thing's a good idea. :D 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
Yeah, why DON'T we start a petition??? 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Yeah, why DON'T we start a petition??? 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 36

Sophist
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04 Dec 2005, 10:59 am

I occasionally go to this other Aspie forum, though I haven't for some time since things there are pretty slow. But I received this email from one of the admins there and thought I'd post it here:

ASWC wrote:
A.S.W.C
Free Speech Press

Prenatal Testing For Autism

The declaration of war against autism has come. Is the declared war and weaponization
of medical professionals by means of aborting developing children in the womb with
autism a crime? Is prenatal testing for autism the attempt at genetic cleansing
by the United States of America? Are the facts correct, you decide!

http://simplecomplexities.org/community ... .php?t=440

Nathan:

Are you worried about the development of a prenatal test for autism, if so why?

Bonnie: Yes, I am very concerned about the development of a prenatal test for autism.
In an interview earlier this year, one of America's leading autism researchers,
Dr. Joseph Buxbaum, who directs the Autism Genome Project at the Mount Sinai School
of Medicine, stated that there could be a prenatal test within 10 years. Others
estimate that prenatal testing will begin even sooner. Bioethics professor Arthur
Caplan expects to see the first prenatal test for autism in three to five years.
He is the author of an article urging society to consider the potential consequences
if the unique perspectives of autistic people were to be lost.

I created a web page in May of this year, Autism Research and Prenatal Testing,
which discusses the social and ethical implications of autism genetic research.

Nathan:

Who is funding the development of a prenatal test for autism?

Bonnie: In the United States, much of the funding for autism genetic studies, including
Dr. Buxbaum's research, comes from the National Institutes of Health. In other words,
Americans' tax money is being used to fund eugenics research. Some private groups
are also funding these studies, including Cure Autism Now (CAN) and the National
Alliance for Autism Research (NAAR).

Researchers funded by CAN already have developed a genetic test for autism, which
is expected to be made available in 2006 and will be used initially for the purpose
of early diagnosis in young children.

Nathan:

Does the war on autism have anything to do with prenatal testing for autism?

Bonnie: Prenatal testing research is part of today's widespread climate of intolerance
toward the autistic population, manifested not only in eugenics funding, but also
in "cure" campaigns that use military rhetoric. Autism Diva discusses
how the well-funded groups that are promoting the dangerous fad treatment of chelation
(which has killed one autistic child already) routinely use extreme "war on
autism" language.

Frank Klein writes that the cure mentality "creates a dynamic in which nearly
any risk is acceptable in fighting the autism, because living with autism, as they
see it, is a fate even worse than death."

In such a social climate, prenatal testing becomes the next logical step in saving
the world's people from a condition that is viewed as a tragic calamity. Putting
the issue in historical perspective, Kathleen Seidel describes how a similar mass
hysteria led to the formation of the eugenics movement in the early twentieth century.

In short, the "war on autism" is just another of history's many outbreaks
of genocidal prejudice against a minority group; our world has seen it before, all
too many times.

Nathan:

Do you think autism prenatal testing might result in the destruction of developing
life by means of abortion for those tested with autism spectrum differences (A.S.D’s)?

Bonnie: Autism prenatal testing would have no purpose other than abortion. Such
a test would stand in stark contrast to other prenatal tests that have legitimate
medical purposes. For example, there is a prenatal test for neural tube defects,
which makes it possible to cure or greatly reduce spina bifida by performing surgery
on a fetus while it is still in the womb. The Down's Syndrome test, although it
has come to be used for abortion, was originally developed with funding from the
March of Dimes to improve the odds of survival for Down's babies, who often have
heart defects and other problems and can benefit from specialized prenatal care.

No such medical considerations exist with regard to autistic babies, who do not
require any unusual prenatal care or treatment. Moreover, because autism is a broad
diagnostic category that encompasses children with many different needs, a prenatal
diagnosis would not enable a parent to make early arrangements for therapies or
other services.

Nathan:

With all of the negative publicity concerning autism in general do you believe a
parent is more likely to fear having a child with any form of autism?

Bonnie: Fear of the unknown is one of the most powerful motivating forces in human
society. With so much ignorance and negativity surrounding autism spectrum differences,
many people are terrified by the thought of having a child with any form of autism.
Parents often react to an autism spectrum diagnosis as if they had just learned
of the child's death.

The fear of autism is so extreme that some parents are now putting their young children
at risk of contracting dangerous childhood diseases by refusing to vaccinate their
children, although there is no sound scientific evidence that vaccines have anything
to do with autism.

When a young child is diagnosed as autistic, the parents often choose not to have
any more children because the possibility of having another autistic child is so
frightening to them. Parents make this decision so frequently that it even has a
name, stoppage. Although a child may be only two or three years old at the time
of diagnosis, and thus his future strengths and difficulties cannot be predicted
accurately, the parents may be so strongly influenced by popular stereotypes that
they automatically assume the child will never be able to leave home.

As the child grows, any difficulties are seen as confirming the parents' worst fears,
even if similar problems would have gone almost unnoticed in a non-autistic child.
One mother wrote about how much she worried that her autistic teenage son would
not be able to live independently because he did not know how to prepare food. She
never thought about the fact that there are millions of men who do not know how
to cook.

Nathan:

Do you believe that discrimination could exist as a result of prenatal testing?

Bonnie: When prenatal testing is used for purposes of abortion, it reflects a social
value judgment on whether or not a particular group of people has any intrinsic
worth as human beings, on who should and who should not inhabit the world. Prejudice
and discrimination are already a fact of daily life for many people on the autistic
spectrum. It is an unfortunate fact that many autistics have been excluded from
various aspects of public life for no other reason than because they are different.
If abortion of autistic children were to become routine, such attitudes would no
doubt be strengthened.

Nathan:

In what ways do you believe autism should be differently understood and presented
in society? Such as on television, newspapers, and other general sources of information
made available to the public.

Bonnie: Replacing disease terminology and sensationalistic language with neutral
and accurate descriptive terms is the most important change that needs to be made
in the way autism is presented in the media and elsewhere. The language used in
"autism awareness" campaigns has been so relentlessly negative that some
parents feel compelled to hide news stories about autism from their autistic children.

Autism researcher Simon Baron-Cohen points out that the routine use of disability
language and other value-laden terminology in describing autism spectrum differences
is pejorative; he argues that, instead, autism should be described as a different
cognitive style and as a natural part of human diversity. Another respected autism
expert, Tony Attwood, who has written extensively on Asperger's syndrome, suggests
rewording the diagnostic criteria in positive terms and even replacing the term
"diagnosis," which itself has medical and disease connotations, with a
neutral term such as "discovery."

The negative social value judgments inherent in medical and disability labels can
cause significant emotional damage to many children. It is very important for professionals,
educators, and the media to be aware of the potential for harm when language is
used carelessly.


This forum isn't anti-NA, but it is pro-neurodiversity as is probably obvious.

*continues to shudder after reading this*

I had heard of lots of talk about this but by now I had disassociated from it and it was in the very bowels of my brain file cabinet. I don't even like thinking about it, instincts for self-preservation and all.


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Serissa
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04 Dec 2005, 11:23 am

It really would be horrible if mothers started aborting their spectrum babies (my stance on abortion aside). However knowing ahead of time could be helpful in dealing with the child.



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04 Dec 2005, 11:42 am

Serissa wrote:
It really would be horrible if mothers started aborting their spectrum babies (my stance on abortion aside). However knowing ahead of time could be helpful in dealing with the child.


Now, knowing ahead of time I don't mind at all. I mean, most of us need more accomodation anyways. But with the option of abortion... *shivers*


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Sophist
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04 Dec 2005, 11:43 am

I think we should start a petition, btw.

Anyone else up for it?

Maybe we could get as many signatures as we could and send it in to NAAR. :D


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agmoie
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04 Dec 2005, 12:10 pm

If Aspergers parents aborted NT babies there would be hell to pay.
We are different but EQUAL.



MishLuvsHer2Boys
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04 Dec 2005, 12:17 pm

Sophist wrote:
Serissa wrote:
It really would be horrible if mothers started aborting their spectrum babies (my stance on abortion aside). However knowing ahead of time could be helpful in dealing with the child.


Now, knowing ahead of time I don't mind at all. I mean, most of us need more accomodation anyways. But with the option of abortion... *shivers*


Unfortunately this option seems to be available more now without even the testing, been to some NT parents of autistic kids forums and some drs. are offering already abortions to those that have one child with autism (especially a boy) that if they find out it's another boy, they have the option to abort. It's sick.



Larval
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04 Dec 2005, 1:13 pm

But the problem here is that abortion itself is a given right. Regardless of whether or not abortion should be legal, do we have the right to stop women from aborting an unwanted baby no matter what the reason for that is? [Personally I'm against abortion myself but willing to accept it for the time being only because we lack the only real alternative.]

If a couple is legally allowed to abort all their girl babies if they only want boys (babies which are completely healthy and "normal" mind you), how hard do you think it will be to block abortion of autistic babies - babies which many "professionals" are arguing as unhealthy?

I am all for a petition against this, but I don't think it will be that easy at all. One major factor in classifying autism as a 'diease' is the misconception that an overwheming number of ausitics have mental retardation - so if a test was developed to detect autism AND a test was developed detected to mental retardation caused by autism AND a treatment was developed to prevent mental retardation, our odds will be a lot better. A lot of ifs, I know, but afaics that is the only realistic option. Test for and treat the known disabiling symptoms of autism but don't treat the autism itself - recognize what the real problem is and fix that. (I know I'm going to get a lot of bashing for saying that last sentence.) Also, figure out what autistic babies are like and how they learn, and write books to teach their parents how to connect and bond with them, lest the parents think that their own child has no love for them (I believe this is what drives most of them for the most desperate and dangerous "war on autism" and "cure now" thing - because they don't believe their own child is capable of loving them - just my impression though, I'm sure others will know a lot better than me).

This won't be good enough to make any autistic's life easy or discrimination as they are, and after they have grown up. But it will at least give many a better chance.

Requiring education about what autism is before deciding whether or not to abort such a baby should be a must as well, I feel.



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04 Dec 2005, 2:34 pm

Sophist: Not to make any word plays about your avatar, but I'm betting that they will never promote a genetic test to find and eliminate royal bastards. I'm convinced that "neurotypical" is not a good thing to be. We know how they behave. We know how people who are "acceptable" to modern society behave.

Whatever it is they think we are, I can tell just by sentence structure that the people on this board are intelligent and sensitive like I think real human beings should be. We can think in terms more complex than "me want food" and "beer good! Fire bad!" If these things are genetic, these are what will be excised from the human race if the Asperger's test is allowed to be used. I keep getting upset because so-called NTs continually take out of the world creatures and things that would bring joy if we were only able to accept it. I have found very few places on the Net where people would act like people and this is one of them. Even the depressing stuff tells me that we are real people who have been wounded, not some sort of disease. Put us in a place that is physically similar to America before the whites came, and we would prosper and so would the land. I am not a Luddite. Technology gives us opportunities to relate to the world in ways that a lot of people don't even understand and that we never had before. We can enjoy things and relationships that were never before possible. We can become the support for life on this planet instead of the end of life on this planet, otherwise what is intelligence for?



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04 Dec 2005, 4:03 pm

Larval wrote:
But the problem here is that abortion itself is a given right. Regardless of whether or not abortion should be legal, do we have the right to stop women from aborting an unwanted baby no matter what the reason for that is? [Personally I'm against abortion myself but willing to accept it for the time being only because we lack the only real alternative.]

If a couple is legally allowed to abort all their girl babies if they only want boys (babies which are completely healthy and "normal" mind you), how hard do you think it will be to block abortion of autistic babies - babies which many "professionals" are arguing as unhealthy?

I am all for a petition against this, but I don't think it will be that easy at all. One major factor in classifying autism as a 'diease' is the misconception that an overwheming number of ausitics have mental retardation - so if a test was developed to detect autism AND a test was developed detected to mental retardation caused by autism AND a treatment was developed to prevent mental retardation, our odds will be a lot better. A lot of ifs, I know, but afaics that is the only realistic option. Test for and treat the known disabiling symptoms of autism but don't treat the autism itself - recognize what the real problem is and fix that. (I know I'm going to get a lot of bashing for saying that last sentence.) Also, figure out what autistic babies are like and how they learn, and write books to teach their parents how to connect and bond with them, lest the parents think that their own child has no love for them (I believe this is what drives most of them for the most desperate and dangerous "war on autism" and "cure now" thing - because they don't believe their own child is capable of loving them - just my impression though, I'm sure others will know a lot better than me).

This won't be good enough to make any autistic's life easy or discrimination as they are, and after they have grown up. But it will at least give many a better chance.

Requiring education about what autism is before deciding whether or not to abort such a baby should be a must as well, I feel.


I believe the ideal thing would be to circulate a petition and send it to the media. Not anti-cure, as that would be hard to accept, but saying that we are living in and dealing with the real world, and that there is hope for us, which more people would understand the message of: Autism is not the end of the world.



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04 Dec 2005, 4:16 pm

Remnant wrote:
Sophist: Not to make any word plays about your avatar, but I'm betting that they will never promote a genetic test to find and eliminate royal bastards. I'm convinced that "neurotypical" is not a good thing to be. We know how they behave. We know how people who are "acceptable" to modern society behave.


Personally I think such a tactic could be a good one to use as an offensive weapon against the anti-autism crowd.

Quote:
So you want to use genetic screening to eliminate us through abortion ehh? Well I think we should do the same for all of you


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04 Dec 2005, 4:23 pm

When I was talking with Temple Grandin,, she had some very insightful things to say regarding this issue. However, the interview text will be posted by tomorrow, so I won't tell you anything about the interview until then.


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Sean
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04 Dec 2005, 4:45 pm

The media might still have some vague, distant memory of us. What if we tried to use that as our ticket to create a positive public awareness campaign?

agmoie wrote:
If Aspergers parents aborted NT babies there would be hell to pay.
We are different but EQUAL.

Hey, whay if JayShaw and Seethaki made a big publicity stunt out of threatening to do that someday? :D



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04 Dec 2005, 5:06 pm

I think we at least need to get our community opinions out there. Everyone's on about autistic kids who many times can't advocate their wants.

But we, as adults or young adults, can. We should try to put our voice out there so the professionals and parents and onlookers can hear. :)


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04 Dec 2005, 5:11 pm

sean - i think it's quite out of the question to capitalise on any lingering attention from recent events. as for exploiting the threat of abortion as a "publicity stunt"... well, do i have to spell out the inappropriateness (not to mention tastelessness) of that suggestion? i do hope jay and seethaki are not offended.



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04 Dec 2005, 5:39 pm

Doesn't this proposition presuppose a definitive and accurate test for Autism and or Asperger's?

Not to be a pessimist, but at the current rate of research in the subject, I doubt that definitive genetic labling for Autism will exist in 10 years. That is assuming of course that the cause is actually genetic, which as Sophist has pointed out, is still open for debate.

What alternitives will we offer parents of childern with disabilities that those parents know they cannot deal with either physically, emotionally, or financially if we force them to bring those children into the world? I assure you that there are not lines of people forming to adopt disabled kids.


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04 Dec 2005, 5:48 pm

If you stamp out autism in the population, you could lose a lot of great engineers, but given that the greedy sons-of-rich-b*tches tend to outsource tech jobs anyways, I guess they couldn't care how many future engineers exist in America. Furthermore, having a population of citizens who are naturally less susceptible to their lucrative memes would also work against them.

But I think the misunderstandings and the high frequency and/or publicity of low-functioning autism are a much more likely proximate cause of the desire to cure the condition than a conspiracy to rid the country of nonconformists so that the corporations can sell stuff. Sentiments against nonconformity have deeper roots than making sales.

Maybe more normal people should read the kind of stuff about autism that I've read...the chapter about it in Ratey and Johnson's Shadow Syndromes, Temple Grandin's Thinking In Pictures and Animals In Translation, the story of Victor the wild child (who enjoyed the solitary life and the beauty of nature), the internet posts of you folks and other autistic spectrum people...I've read so much good stuff about autism that I tend to romanticize it and even envy it. I suppose this other extreme could have its own faults if it became the norm, perhaps working against the promotion of therapeutic programs for those who really need them (IMO, support for the sensory issues and education in how to deal with normal people and basic self-preservation would probably be best). But if people could operate from a reasonable middle...well, that would be quite a miracle, as the middle ground can be so fleeting, like a pendulum that swings at its most rapidly past its stable point where the forces are balanced.


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