Can Anybody Set Me Straight???

Post Reply New Topic

I apologize in advance if much of this post seems ignorant. I´ll be the first to admit, I´m rather clueless about some things. But I´ve been trying to work this out my whole life, and I guess I still don´t understand a lot! There are just so many conflicting elements and concepts about romantic relationships that I don´t "get". Maybe if I could finally understand them, my life would be easier?

First off, as children, what we learn about love- (what people and society tell us)- is highly idealistic; (I don´t know what it´s like for boys, but most girls, I think, are given the "rose-colored" version. Also, we basically learn that love and marriage will be the biggest and most important events in our lives....) But then, when we grow up, we are told "Well, it´s not like in the movies, you know!" If that´s the case, then why weren´t we told that in the first place? Where did they think our notions came from?? This might save a lot of misunderstanding. Or did I just take things too literally when I was young?

In my experience, I have found relationships to be drastically different from what I was initially led to believe. I´ll even go so far as to say that most relationships are unpleasant. I am not trying to be negative or difficult here, I am just stating a fact about my experience. Most friendships, to me, seem to be more pure, honest and accepting than romantic relationships; however, in our society romantic relationships are still coveted, and somehow considered more "lofty"; "the ultimate". It´s been my experience that "love" relationships bring out the most superficial and selfish aspects of people- not "lofty" or "spiritual" at all! For instance, breast size seems to be a huge issue- (excuse the pun). Now, why is having to worry about one´s breast size- because it is SO important to the other person- considered "lofty"? Frankly, I find this a waste of time- I have better things to think about!

To me, romantic relationships feel much like play-acting. One of the things I learned is that it is required to let the person know that they are MORE important to you than any other person, animal, thing, or activity, even if it is not true...(or maybe not true at that particular moment). People would rather have you lie to them than tell the truth about this. But who wants to live a lie? What´s the point, especially if you know it´s a lie? Much of what people say are lies, and much that should be said remains unsaid. So why do we learn that honest communication is so important, if nobody really follows that concept? Or expects you to follow it either?

One last question: I keep reading, continuously, that men are actually polygamous Of course, in the monogamous-relationship-system of our society, this would cause obvious problems. So, if this is true, why don´t men just "come out" and be polygamous, openly and honestly? Why the big charade? Why pretend to be monogamous, and be sneaky about it? Shouldn´t we just implement a different system, so people aren´t forced to lie?

Sorry about the long post. If anyone has any answers, I would be eternally grateful....Thanks!

I think the notion that men are naturally polygamous is wrong. I'd be fine with just one woman!

I'm not inclined to think that human beings in general are naturally predisposed to monogamy. If you look at bonobo chimpanzees, who are possibly the closest cousins to us in an evolutionary sense, not only are they not monogamous, they're just about exactly the opposite of monogamous. Every bonobo is inherently bisexual and what's different about them in general from other primates, even other chimpanzees is that where other apes manage problems like scarcity with violence ("look, there's only one banana -- if I beat the crap out of you, then I can have it"), the bonobos are pretty much the opposite, actually using sex as a means of comforting each other through those kinds of challenges (and then they share the food). Even beyond bonobos, monogamy is not common amongst animals - it happens in something like 1 in 20 species. I think the reason why people are touting articles that talk about men being polygamous is because it's still more socially acceptable to propose that than it is to propose that women are naturally inclined to the same sort of thing.

The lying I don't understand either. I could rationalize some kind of explanation, but it would only be a rationalization. I know that I'm not good at it.

There are some people who don't do the "you complete me" thing. I honestly couldn't tell you how common they are, but I know I'm one of them. I want the people I'm involved with to be their own person, to have their own goals and dreams and aspirations, independent of me. That way, we can enjoy each others company and love and support each other without the burden of being (fictionally) responsible for the other person's happiness.

But Tiffany and I both also self-identify as bisexual and polyamorous (not to be confused with polygamous). To date we've only had sexual relationships with a very small number of other people (I can count them on one hand), and those have been far between and unfortunately haven't lasted very long due to other differences. The sex hasn't been an issue for us, although once or twice the other person wigged out after we had sex. Why that is I couldn't say.

Actually I really identify more as either sapiosexual or pansexual, but most people aren't familiar with those terms and even in the case of "sapiosexual" a lot of folks seem to interpret that as being attracted to a person's IQ, which isn't what I'm attracted to. I'm honestly not entirely sure what attracts me, but I can say that it's more about personality than it is about the physical body. I'd much rather have sex with a homely person I enjoy talking to than to have sex with a supermodel who's vain or materialistic or who just can't carry a conversation. She could look just like Pam Anderson or Angelina Jolie, but if she acts like a bully or a snotty brat or if she can't understand simple concepts, there's nothing in the world that will turn me off faster. A lot of the gay men I've met fall in that "snotty brat" category for me too (and/or they're just trying to get into my pants, which doesn't work for me), so although I had a boyfriend for a while I've not had much luck to date hitting it off with guys.

So I guess what I look for in a romantic partner is what you describe as a "friendship".

The whole big breasts thing isn't an issue for me either. I think the breasts thing probably is a subconscious thing that happens because of the previous conditioning of being nursed as a baby. For people who were bottle fed I would expect that influence to be weaker on average although there wouldn't be anything preventing social pressure from encouraging them to develop a big breast fetish still.

Sociobiology (at present) hints that men impregnate as many females as possible, in order to create a large number of offspring to carry on the line, whereas women can only have one birth at a time, so they look for men with good nurturing and defense skills.

Love evolves over time. The Greeks had several different categories for love (they even loved categories... such as philos, eros, etc. (or maybe it was the Romans...they were hard to separate at times...

Events in love wil change your perspective. Prior to being pregnant, many females don't consider sex and children with the same connection as expectant and actual mothers. Then also, 'protecting' young children from the seamier aspects of loves makes us 'sugarcoat' how we describe love. We like them to think of the wonderful feelings, while shielding them from the alchoholic ex who was found with his secretary in some seedy dive prior to the divorce..


et cetera....

I had a nice articulate (for me) long response to this one...but I accidentally erased it before I could post it...

I will try to paraphrase:

Once upon a time I bought all the stuff that society feeds us about the way that human relationships are supposed to be. I was a very "black and white" thinker on the subject...And thinking that way ended up causing me alot of grief.

But over time all kinds of stuff happened, and now I am polyamorous..and...it just seems to make alot of sense...

Though part of the reason I am able to pull it off is that I am unable to have kids..and I tend to be pretty nurturing towards my partners...so having more than one boyfriend is kinda like having more than one kid.

I am constantly reminded of how important I am to my main partner, meanwhile he has his mistress, and I have my other boyfriend who is very important to me...

I swear my original post was alot more indepth and articualte than this one
...sorry...

I will try to elaborate later...

I agree that society, for the most part, is one BIG lie. Couples in realtionships lie to each other and themselves about what they want out of the partnership and end up dragging it out and wasting each other's time. Also, people lie to each other in everyday conversation to keep from hurting the other person's feelings, or making them mad, or whatever.

Morgana; It was my intention to not respond to Q on this site anymore. But I want to tell you that it isn't romance that is flawed when liars and losers strike.

Romantic relationships are not more phony than other relationships. Firstly, it's the low-status and loser NT males tend to do the lying and phony stuff. The really good NT males don't do that stuff. And "good" doesn't necessarily mean "popular" or "rich" or "social" other fixed measure. It's the measure of a man in how much a man he is on the inside, which is hard to define in words. (Also, AS men & women can't be classified as "losers" or "low status" in the way NTs can, b/c it is the AS traits that make them appear certain ways on the outside that is different from how they are on the inside, so these words can't apply to AS people, when I use them).

When you find a "real man", they don't do that stuff that you talk about -- and I have found very important, successful, respected men who are sexually desperate losers and corrupt jerks in their personal life, and I have also seen simple, unimportant men without recognition who are great, real men in their personal lives.

I never cared about the liars, etc. In general, when you discover someone is a phony and liar, you're better off just cutting them lose ASAP. It's important to unload losers ASAP if you mistakenly get too close to one, if you are AS and trying to maintain high-functioning. The life of AS is very tough, and nothing can raise the stress level and increase your disorientation and meltdown frequency than an inappropriate person in your sex/personal life.

What is very important is figuring out what misperception in you made you misclassify the loser as a real man. The losers provide us with great opportunities to figure out where our social development is most vulnerable to flaws and hacks. I.e. the losers provide us with great learning and self-analysis for social skills development. So the question is not, what is wrong with romance that it is all false play-acting, but what specific flaws and blank spaces in my social mind enabled me to mistake this loser for a real man? You figure them out, figure out their game and what psychological problem made them do what they do, and then update your models, social insights and maybe some specific social skills. That self-development op is the important thing about any of those situations.

I have a problem in that I'm obsessed with my education and learning. This made me vulnerable to the lies of losers. My "special interests" are mostly acted out as learning opportunities. This passionate, mysterious drive of my special interests and my fixation on education has made me repeatedly fall for the lies of professors who were trying to take advantage of me sexually. These guys who did try to associate with me and offer me amazing "opportunities" were in fact pathetic losers in their personal lives -- married, but with empty sexless relationships at home, cheating in coercive relationships with students, etc -- but I was so wanting what they offered that I was deluded going into these situations, every time. So my weakness and stupidity, repeatedly, was my ability to be duped by those offering me what I wanted most in my special interest fixations. So my "loser radar" was off in my area of special interest fixation. If they were lying to me, I was eager to believe them.

Romance with a real man is not a problem. It is always a good thing in one's life to have a real man in it, whether he is important, unsuccessful, AS or NT. A real man always leaves you with more than what he came into your life with, because he leaves something of himself behind, no matter what causes you to break up. What is a problem are the losers who engage in these games that you speak of ... and whatever delusions, desires and vulnerabilities in ourselves that give them the leverage they use to dupe us into temporary delusions that that they are more than what they are.

An evolutionary psychologist will say that a man is programmed to impregnate as many females as possible. But women want to have as strong a partnership as possible in the first few (couple) years of a baby's life, to help protect her and the child. So in a society that is totally equal, socially and economically, men tend to be polyamorous, seeking as many sexual opportunities at once, while women tend to be serial monogamists, trading up or upgrading their men every few years.

Also, women tend to cheat on their partners with other dominant males. An effect of this was found in genetic testing of wild horses in America by a female biologist who suspected the mustang-harem model was oversimplified. What she found, after genetic testing of the mares, mustangs and foals was that the mustangs were establishing harems in which they gathered females for breeding into herds, and then protected them from predators and other males. But that the females were also sneaking around and mating with the mustangs who where harem-keepers. So certain dominant mustangs had harems, but the females were then going around and "cheating" with other dominant mustangs.

Some evidence that human females have this kind of programming is found in the fact that women's brains respond sexually to images of attractive, dominant men when they are ovulating and respond sexually to the "nice guy" types when they are not. So human females are more driven to have sex with the dominant genes guys when they are in estrus, but then are wired to bond with good protectors who will help take care of them and their babies, when they are not ovulating. We are wired to get pregnant by one type of (dangerous, dominant) guy and to be in a bond-pair with another type of (nice, responsible) guy.

The foregoing contradiction in the female response to bad guys vs. nice guys baffles males, and they feel gamed by the contradiction, just as females feel gamed by the lies and cheats of males who scramble to have as many females on the hook as possible. Both males and females are wired to cheat, but in different ways, and both males and females feel gamed by the other's contradictions and inconsistencies.

Wow, that was awesome.

I think I agree with you. I´m not entirely sure if I´m monogamous...okay, I only seem to be able to have the energy for one man at a time (due to possible AS, or whatever)- but, I basically never feel this "forever" kind of a feeling with a man. To me, relationships feel temporary and transient....

But I don´t feel bisexual either. In a way, I wish I were....women seem to like me better! I´d probably have better luck. Men seem to desire me, but hate me at the same time...I hate that....

poopylungstuffing: thanks for your reply. Like you, I was also very "black and white" about things. If you want to elaborate further on your post, I would love to read it!

ephemerella: thanks a lot for your response! So...you mean all men are not alike?? I truly hope...

I think part of my problem in believing the lies is that, precisely, I simply believed the lies...in other words, when I was young, I was so naive as to believe nobody would lie! I thought it would defeat the purpose...why would anyone want to lie just to have a relationship? It would only be temporary, we would find out the truth anyway, eventually. I was totally clueless about the minds of men, back then.

Nowadays, I tend NOT to believe almost everything! If a man is obviously trying to "pick me up", I take everything he says with a grain of salt...I don´t believe a word, but I play along as I like, until I figure him out better. I don´t rush into things; unfortunately, this means basically not getting involved at all.

As for the "losers", well: somehow, it seems to be mostly the jerks and losers who are interested in me. Many of the men I went out with I wasn´t really sure about: I just felt it was about time to try SOMEthing. I don´t understand it, really. I am intelligent, independent, cultured, and people say I´m attractive. I´m not sure if there´s something that comes off wrong in my body language, or something about how I come off socially?? I´ve been asking this question for years. Of course, it was only about 1 year ago that I discovered the concept of non-verbal signals, and that I probably have to show a man that I am interested, so he can approach me. Now that I know this, I´m afraid to do it, because I know I have trouble figuring people out: what if I give the "go ahead" to someone, and he´s a nutcase? (By the way, I am constantly "hit on" by nutcases...)

Well....my love life- (or lack thereof)- is a big problem, that I need to somehow work out...

ephemerella, I have one more question for you: as you seem so knowledgeable about social situations and the minds of neurotypicals, do you have any good books to recommend me? I have money from my father, which I can use for Christmas presents to myself...I´d like to order books from Amazon, but I´m not sure what I´m looking for...if you can recommend me some of your favorite books on these subjects (relationships also), that would be cool!

Oh, sorry, here I am posting again. It has occurred to me recently that maybe I should try to date men with AS. I keep reading that many women with AS tend to prefer men with AS...that may be the way to go. Though I´m not quite sure how to meet one...(AS support group? Is that a dumb reason to go to a support group? Do I need an official diagnosis to go, also?) well...who knows. At least, I think it might help that lying problem...)

Of course they make such a big thing out of love when you are little, they want it to look like something hardcore level importent things, i mean i guess it's some sort of guidience, no idea really : /

well havn't really thought much about it anyway as i've never been told so much bout it anyway

I am really lucky to have partners who are friends...and also they are kinda Spectrumy so maybe it is easier for the conventional rules of human interaction to not really apply, and we are able to operate on terms that work better for us.
My main partner is somewhat more NT than I am, but can't date mature NT women because he perpetually infuriates them and they end up beating him up. I have seen first-hand the grief he has caused to a mature intelligent responsible NT woman, and it was not pretty.
When he is not being deceitful in order to protect himself and others, he can be brutally honest...But before we went Poly, I had reached a point where I simply could no longer trust a thing he said to me because of all the infidelity...but now I don't really have any reasons not to..we know where we both stand for the most part.

My other partner is Very AS-ish and as a result has had few relationships. He is very set in his ways and has a hard time with girls. He has been my friend for a long time. I do the best I can to nurture him and look after him and let him know that someone cares for him even though I can't always be around. Also..he does not have an exclusivity contract with me...so should something come up, then so be it..I would rather be informed, than not informed though...i don't know how greedy that is of me..

I would certainly think it would help the lying problem... it is after all the general consensus both amongst professionals and casually that people with AS regardless of gender are "too honest for their own good", much as I had identified several years ago before I found out about AS (and was once abused by NTs for claiming). I'm not sure, but you might be able to use WrongPlanet to find guys. There's also a dating site, which I would love to see get more members and traffic, although the last few times I was on it the membership was still way small, so there weren't many people.

Here's the site
http://www.aspieaffection.com/

If you can find an aspie support group for adults nearby you ought to be able to go there. I was able to participate in the Aspergers Association of New England (AANE) events for adults without yet having an official diagnosis (though it turned out I did have one, but was confused about the status of the paper). Anyway, they weren't going to turn me away for not having a diagnosis, in part because y'know, part of the purpose of the group is to help undiagnosed adults. In some cases that may mean helping them with referrals to get a diagnosis (which is what I needed and am still waiting on a follow up with the neurologist on the 2nd, because I needed more than a psych. diagnosis), and in other cases it may be that, due to health and legal concerns an adult with AS is hesitant to get a diagnosis because it could make it difficult for them to get health insurance. So I would think that any group that deals with adults with AS would be supportive of you irrespective of your having or not having a diagnosis.

Having said that, be prepared for a number of the people you meet there to have fairly overt symptoms. I felt a little out of place when I went to the game night -- although if I'm being truly honest, I have no idea if I seemed out of place from an outsider's perspective.

Also although I wouldn't have any problem with dating being part of the reason for going, I'm not sure how others would feel about it. To me it seems perfectly reasonable and I'm pretty sure more than one of the people there are interested in relationships and having difficulty in that arena, so if say one of my daughters were having "guy troubles", I would be excited to hear that she was able to find someone she liked at an AS support group. (They're not quite old enough yet, my oldest is 13.)

And beyond all that, then I suppose it couldn't actually hurt anything if you're not having luck elsewhere, to post a profile to something like FriendFinder and state in your profile that you're hoping to meet someone with AS specifically. It may not be very likely that you'll find anyone that way, but there is a slim chance if nothing else is working for you.

And this idea struck me as interesting too... it's not quite speed-dating, but who knows...
http://itsjustlunch.com/

this is all very interesting to me. Most of you who have seen me aroun don WP know i have a son and that i live with his dad. we have separate areas of the house. We were "together" in the traditional sense of the word until mid 2008, when i made it clear if i had to go on like that i might as well kill myself. I kid you not.

My attititude to love and relationships and sex is rather non-conformist. One of the issues wtih my son's dad was that i was not able to play the game of the traditional role. Me? Moi? No way. i cannot even sit down - the three of us - ad play a card game or boardgame without squirming with the intensity of it. i sit there stimming and feeling sick. In fact, adhering to the stereotypical role in this resepct for the sake of love and a relationship is akin to death. Just like ripping my heart out.

I've thought a lot about this over the months since my dx. What is love? what is a relationship? how is it i find them so odious? so difficult? They seem to interfere terribly with the real me, who wants to read and paint all the time and hang out on WP and do just about everything on my own. I don't want to talk. i do not like communicating except if i find the subject interesting. I like sex but i do not like the physical touching as i have sensory issues. i have trained myself to partake in exchanges with my son and to relate there, and i am good at it.

Now, i acknowledge it must be very strange for a man to want to be with me when i don;t want to be with anyone. and yet, i have grown used to this person in my life and want friendhsip and non-complicated sex only every so often. I have a child, and i am happy to live together. BUt the way i honestly feel is that for over 40 years i have been compelled by others and by society to try to live a more "socially acceptable" life....and goodness knows i tried and failed considerably over and over and over. My life is punctuated by 2 things - my special interests AND the fruitless attempts to fit in with life beyond my own self. I am so tired of it. SO yes, my life is a series of attempts to fit in until it no longer became possible. and i am left with me and AS and how i live. I am in that period of post dx adjustment as some of you know, and i find i love the people i live with - my son and ex-partner - and i in fact adore my son........bu the way it has been is just untenable. i think a lot of it has to do with the fact my AS is incompatible with the demands of a normal relationship. i just need to follow my own internal logic and my own internal system of rules androutines and then i am fine. I have tried compromising with others and trying to live according to others' constraints or well meaning attempts regarding how things "should be" or "are for others," and all it has led to is utter despair for me. THe other issue about love and a relationship is that now i have my son - i reserve most of my capcaity for human relating for him --- that is of utmost importance to me. he needs it most. there isn't much i have to give actually. but he gets the gold and anyone else is left with the scraps. that includes his dad -which must be hard, but i do not know how else i can cope. He asks " why do you have to be on Wp at 5am or 6 in the morning?" and "why can't you just spend time with me?" and i explain - i have AS. I do not want to spend time with anyone. i just want to do things on my own> i can spend time with him if we are both watching tv - i have screen then. But i just do not enjoy going off together and "pretending." it is not that i do not lov ehime. it is just that the love is a different quality and type than the usual......and it is impacted upon by my AS and that is fine wtih me. My son;s dad is slowly understanding that the way i am is nto because i am malicious or awful or selfish or cold. life is different for me and normal relating with others on a daily basis is my idea of living hell. if it relating through the net -that is fine and distant and i can infact process my thoughts more easily. but the compexities of one on on with hima nd the ensuant emotional complexities are like a minefield. I always get it wrong and i always have meltdowns.

at 46 i am at a point of being too tired to be anything other thatn who and what i am. that is a good thing, but it is takin gloved ones some time to adjust to the fact that i cannot and do not want tomould myself into what they want or require from me.

'scuse typo's. i can spell but am too flaked out after writing this to actually give a toss.
have a good day.

Last edited by millie on 27 Dec 2008, 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think Tiffany's answer to that would probably be that women are just as difficult to mesh with as men.

And my experience with men is that most of them just want to get into my pants, which doesn't work at all for me... So I think she and I are both at about the same place on that front.

I'm not real sure about the whole "forever" feeling in general... I don't know that it's even something that NTs are naturally inclined to, I suspect that's been very gradually conditioned into our culture. Somebody posted a study here recently that showed that people who watch romantic comedies for example are more likely to have unrealistic expectations of their partners -- and they actually blinded the study so that they just had a random selection of people watching x or y movie and the people who'd just finished watching the com-com (irrespective of their preference) were more likely to have unrealistic expectations. There's a lot to be said for anchoring and classical conditioning.

I enjoy having more than one partner at a time, although it's been several years since that's happened. I can however relate to the notion of being overloaded by it. Even a lot of NTs express that sentiment.