Unwritten Social Rules of Dating

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CerebralDreamer
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18 Mar 2009, 1:29 am

It seems I've figured things out to some extent as far as dating goes. The funny thing is this advice works far better in-person. This won't get you down the wedding aisle, but it should get your foot in the door.

A common subject in sociology is that our labels define who we are in the eyes of society. Labels can be given based on clothing, prior reputation, hobbies, body build, virtually anything you do, own, or wear. Who we really are isn't as important as who people think we are.

You could be the nicest man in the world, never even jaywalked, enter a local convenience store as a 6 foot black man in goth clothing, and you'll have the police following you for the next half hour. Meanwhile the serial killer will walk in with his nice polo shirt and sociable jeans, right past the cops, then have a girl agree to go home with him because he seems cute.

Simply put, how you dress is a major part of who or what people think you are. I've found that by selecting what I wear by looking for any labels it could give off that I'm looking to avoid, I'm getting a lot more looks from the opposite sex. Really, the only way to figure it out is to walk into a few clothing stores, and start experimenting with different outfits until you find something that works.

When you find someone that's interested, there are a few more rules which may seem absurd, but do have some biological basis. Take for example playing hard-to-get. Brushing off a few approaches, or pretending to never notice them gives off the impression that you either have very high standards, or enough people approaching that you aren't very concerned with passing up any chances.

If done successfully, you'll make it seem like your genetic traits are in high demand, without registering this on their conscious mind, as they'd rather not see themselves as an animal looking to pass on the best genetic material they can find. Not to mention, with the right frame of mind these romantic gestures could be a major boost to self-esteem.

Hobbies are another important point. An anime hobby isn't going to get very many dates outside of ComicCon, but becoming active with a local nature club that goes on regular hiking trips will really help when it comes to picking up dates. Approaching someone and telling them about your latest hiking trip while playing hard to get should make things rather easy compared to having no tools at all in your bag of tricks.

The major point is tailoring all of this to something that matches your personality AND the type of person you want to date. Some men can pull off bell bottom pants and shirts that haven't been worn since the eighties, but most would get beat up instead of a crowd of swooning women.

On a final note, look into any symptoms of AS that are listed as a cause for social isolation. It might be worth learning a bit about a subject you would ordinarily hate just to keep up with conversations, and maintain image. If you can goad others into talking without having to say much yourself, you're set with the extroverts.

If anyone else has some tips, ideas for revision, criticism or hate mail, my box is open. Also, it might be worth checking out a few books on sociology, as they can provide more help than this post.



makuranososhi
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18 Mar 2009, 12:55 pm

Honestly... what you wrote is a pretty concise description of how symptoms of AS express, and expecting people to just simple change them. Playing hard to get? *shakes head* These are games, which for myself are useless and unattractive... and fashion will only attract women for whom fashion is of importance - there is no universal solution to attraction. As is often mentioned on here, it isn't always a matter of subject matter knowledge, but how to maintain a conversation, how to respond, what to look for in response from others. Your post comes across as a selective analysis of the behaviors of the human animal coupled with a suggestion that those on the spectrum are simply not working hard enough instead of having a completely different process of thought. There are no absolute rules in relationships and attracting a partner... the one-size-fits-all mentality will, by design, tend to fail over a genuine approach.


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solinoure
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19 Mar 2009, 11:14 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
Playing hard to get? *shakes head* These are games, which for myself are useless and unattractive... and fashion will only attract women for whom fashion is of importance.


I think that part of what CerebralDreamer is saying that there are some AS traits, that can be parlayed into assets in the NT-meat-space.

So, being social-cue-blind can be parlayed into attractiveness, and quite listeners is what most people want and rarely get.

Turning a weakness into a strength is a very sound thing to do strategic speaking.

/the rest of CerebralDreamer's post is good NT-herding tips. IMHO



Learning2Survive
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19 Mar 2009, 11:32 pm

CerebralDreamer and solinoure - good job guys!

let's compile these tips in a concise list format

1. dress well + take 2 showers a day + a little deodorant + mouthwash + haircut every month + cut nails weekly
2. brush off first approaches
3. ask and listen
4. do not go to bars, clubs, parties, or try to dance or you will embarrass yourself miserably.


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makuranososhi
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19 Mar 2009, 11:32 pm

solinoure wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Playing hard to get? *shakes head* These are games, which for myself are useless and unattractive... and fashion will only attract women for whom fashion is of importance.


I think that part of what CerebralDreamer is saying that there are some AS traits, that can be parlayed into assets in the NT-meat-space.

So, being social-cue-blind can be parlayed into attractiveness, and quite listeners is what most people want and rarely get.

Turning a weakness into a strength is a very sound thing to do strategic speaking.

/the rest of CerebralDreamer's post is good NT-herding tips. IMHO


What you describe is a far cry from the games of the original post. Turning a weakness to a strength - all for it. Being attentive and focused? Sounds like a decent approach to finding one's niche with people. But playing games is not something I find at all appealing, and not something that I respect. And in my opinion, the behavior reductionist theory being proposed is not one that works - while I fully believe that humanity still much more beast than most if not all would ever admit, the effects of societal impressions mar and distort what reasonably could be taken from such analysis. Ah, for the joys of herding cats!


M.


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solinoure
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19 Mar 2009, 11:55 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
But playing games is not something I find at all appealing, and not something that I respect.


I'm with you. Manipulation is bad. But not all game playing is Manipulation. Seduction, as an aspect of charm, is another form of game play that doesn't have to be manipulative. There is a difference between Manipulation and Seduction, Manipulation ends conversation, Seduction further's it.

makuranososhi wrote:
- while I fully believe that humanity still much more beast than most if not all would ever admit, the effects of societal impressions mar and distort what reasonably could be taken from such analysis.


Humans are social beasts so a lot of that social impression can be accounted for. There is basic social instinct operatin ing human at large. Its plausable to pustulate that there is such a "tribal brain" that grants humans born in tribalizaton instincts. Then the NT mind is connected to a healthy "tribal brain", while the AS mind is not - its "tribal brain" is not working properly if at all. Compensate for the missing data and processor - using any handy faults that can be turned in to strength.



CerebralDreamer
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20 Mar 2009, 12:30 am

makuranososhi wrote:
solinoure wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Playing hard to get? *shakes head* These are games, which for myself are useless and unattractive... and fashion will only attract women for whom fashion is of importance.


I think that part of what CerebralDreamer is saying that there are some AS traits, that can be parlayed into assets in the NT-meat-space.

So, being social-cue-blind can be parlayed into attractiveness, and quite listeners is what most people want and rarely get.

Turning a weakness into a strength is a very sound thing to do strategic speaking.

/the rest of CerebralDreamer's post is good NT-herding tips. IMHO


What you describe is a far cry from the games of the original post. Turning a weakness to a strength - all for it. Being attentive and focused? Sounds like a decent approach to finding one's niche with people. But playing games is not something I find at all appealing, and not something that I respect. And in my opinion, the behavior reductionist theory being proposed is not one that works - while I fully believe that humanity still much more beast than most if not all would ever admit, the effects of societal impressions mar and distort what reasonably could be taken from such analysis. Ah, for the joys of herding cats!


M.

The point is that it's a game that a lot of people play without realizing it. Just look over at any number of species that have obscure often bizarre mating rituals. It's the same thing with humans. I genuinely believe a lot of people do these without realizing it. One of the problems with Asperger's Syndrome is we don't imitate behaviors by default like everyone else, which means if we want to adapt, we have to figure out the rhyme and reason just to keep up.

If you want to be romantically successful, you will imitate. Admittedly, understanding what you're doing does make it seem like manipulation, but when you don't have it bred into your instinctual mind, there has to be some way to adjust. When you do that, and figure out how it works on a very mechanical level, you could be more successful than a lot of NT men. Just be sure to treat your partners right, so you don't give all of us a bad reputation. :wink:



makuranososhi
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20 Mar 2009, 12:42 am

I appreciate the presumption... *smirk* Reducing humanity to raw instinct is as bad as claiming that we are "above" such things; neither is an accurate portrayal. The absence of awareness makes one more attuned that absent sense or appendage, but does not make it supreme. In the effort to be successful in romance, imitation can only garner results as long as one can keep up the facade - beyond that point, it is doomed to failure. After several attempts along that path when I was younger, I realized that such an approach did not work for me. One does not need to manipulate in order to meet people, to connect with them, to fall in love... just because something does not happen in a traditional manner does not mean it doesn't happen. My fiance and I were friends for eight years before we allowed ourselves to open up about how we felt about each other... and finally, we're happy. You can choose to imitate, or you can find your own voice, however unconventional it may be.


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CerebralDreamer
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20 Mar 2009, 1:05 am

makuranososhi wrote:
I appreciate the presumption... *smirk* Reducing humanity to raw instinct is as bad as claiming that we are "above" such things; neither is an accurate portrayal. The absence of awareness makes one more attuned that absent sense or appendage, but does not make it supreme. In the effort to be successful in romance, imitation can only garner results as long as one can keep up the facade - beyond that point, it is doomed to failure. After several attempts along that path when I was younger, I realized that such an approach did not work for me. One does not need to manipulate in order to meet people, to connect with them, to fall in love... just because something does not happen in a traditional manner does not mean it doesn't happen. My fiance and I were friends for eight years before we allowed ourselves to open up about how we felt about each other... and finally, we're happy. You can choose to imitate, or you can find your own voice, however unconventional it may be.


M.

If it becomes a habit, then there won't be much issue. The main thing is figuring out a way to ease out of the facade when entering a relationship, and that is actually rather easy given most people have and will expect change of some sort as two people get closer together.

At that point it all boils down to how well you can adapt and express yourself without sending off all the wrong messages. My problem was never holding onto a relationship. I've always been the one to call it off. My problem has been getting into one in the first place.

If you can overcome the detriments of AS, while holding onto the strengths, a romantic partner will admire you for it if you treat them well. If you don't treat them well, then you've become another one of the chauvinistic jerks that give all men a bad name.



makuranososhi
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20 Mar 2009, 1:12 am

Your use of 'you' is confusing; are you referring to me specifically, or a general sense?

I disagree completely with the suggestion of using a facade as lure; such bait and switch techniques are rather repulsive to me. In my relationships, it was often the other person who ended the relationship... not that I think that either extreme suggests anything other than a willingness to commit and continue working on the relationship. Whether or not you have AS is irrelevant in the framework of what you are talking about - being good to your partner is admirable, treating them poorly is disrespectful. One need not resort to games, manipulation and social fraud to be successful in relationships. We will continue to disagree - perhaps it is best to acknowledge this and move on.


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CerebralDreamer
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20 Mar 2009, 1:28 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Your use of 'you' is confusing; are you referring to me specifically, or a general sense?

I disagree completely with the suggestion of using a facade as lure; such bait and switch techniques are rather repulsive to me. In my relationships, it was often the other person who ended the relationship... not that I think that either extreme suggests anything other than a willingness to commit and continue working on the relationship. Whether or not you have AS is irrelevant in the framework of what you are talking about - being good to your partner is admirable, treating them poorly is disrespectful. One need not resort to games, manipulation and social fraud to be successful in relationships. We will continue to disagree - perhaps it is best to acknowledge this and move on.


M.

I was about to say that. We seem to have an integral moral disagreement that isn't very likely to be resolved. I might as well go convince the Pope to join a local Atheist movement, buy condoms, and sign a petition for legalizing late-term abortion, and then promptly convince Paris Hilton to become a nun. Simply put, not happening. Although, Paris Hilton is a bit... Nevermind. XD



solinoure
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20 Mar 2009, 2:12 am

Where is the manipulation exactly? I don't see how learning to speak the local language (NT) and turning a few liabilites in to assets is manipulation.



CerebralDreamer
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20 Mar 2009, 2:24 am

solinoure wrote:
Where is the manipulation exactly? I don't see how learning to speak the local language (NT) and turning a few liabilites in to assets is manipulation.

The problem is you're deliberately manipulating your behavior to make yourself more attractive. A lot of people, NTs included would have major issues with that. Again, might as well tell the Pope to go Atheist. This is an issue most people aren't very likely to agree on.

Then again, I have no problem with manipulating who I am and how I look, as long as I don't use it for nefarious ends. Because of that, we tend to be in agreement, while Makuranososhi isn't going to give his approval anytime soon because of radical differences in life philosophy.



makuranososhi
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20 Mar 2009, 3:22 am

solinoure wrote:
Where is the manipulation exactly? I don't see how learning to speak the local language (NT) and turning a few liabilites in to assets is manipulation.


It's semantics in places, perspective in others... the need to learn how to communicate with others, in the manner which they need to best understand, is something I am familiar with, and support. And I agree that what can be considered liabilities can be converted to strengths - I'm happier now being comfortable with who I am than any of those years I tried to be someone else. And that is where I have an issue, when a deceptive facade is created in order to garner someone's interest... it rarely if ever works in the long term, because the illusion is impossible to maintain. Self-improvement and evolution is different than creating a fake front in my mind, let me make that clear. When I suggest someone be themselves, that doesn't excuse poor decisions or cease to try and better themselves; rather, I support becoming comfortable with who you are, do not apologize for their sense of self (strangely, this seems to correlate more to confidence in my mind than the 'swagger' that seems to be the stereotype), and develop their strength instead of investing in weakness that only serve to make someone the same as everyone else instead of standing out for who they are. Personal opinion... and CD, I would be interested in talking more philosophy, perhaps in PPR in the future. Mine is pretty simple; I don't find manipulation attractive or healthy... the art of seduction, as was referenced before, is more a dance of two instead of a solo performance - and one meant only to achieve a desired result. Would I want to be treated that way? No. So why would I treat another person in that manner?


M.


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For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

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solinoure
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20 Mar 2009, 11:45 am

Manipulation, Manipulation...

Image

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk



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20 Mar 2009, 12:35 pm

Learning2Survive wrote:
CerebralDreamer and solinoure - good job guys!

let's compile these tips in a concise list format

1. dress well + take 2 showers a day + a little deodorant + mouthwash + haircut every month + cut nails weekly
2. brush off first approaches
3. ask and listen
4. do not go to bars, clubs, parties, or try to dance or you will embarrass yourself miserably.

5. whoever asks for the date pays for the date
6. if the date is not going well, just admit it, apologize, and graciously offer to make things right, even if it means ending the date and going home ... alone
7. take responsibility for contraception, whether it's a cold shower, a pill, a condom, or a knee to the groin


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