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Should it be legal to deny the holocaust?
Yes 75%  75%  [ 52 ]
No 25%  25%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 69

Concenik
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18 Apr 2009, 4:59 pm

Orwell wrote:
Concenik wrote:
Bluestocking wrote:
Drizzleman, bravo. You would have made Swift proud.



I think Johnathon Swift might've kicked you in the ass for saying that tbh.

Have you ever read Swift? Drizzleman's post wasn't on the level of Swiftian parody, but it was pretty good.

Quote:
I can't wait to get my diagnosis - I'm the aspie that going to kick you arrogant fwits out of your ivory towers. 'we are so clued in and clever cos we're aspies' - SUCH TOSH obviously.

I haven't seen much of that type of attitude in PPR, actually.


Maybe you should look inward :twisted:

Yes, I have read Swift - I'm getting thin with your "innate" arrogance tbh - so you can start flaming away if you wish - Drizzleman didn't make anything like a Swiftian parody - have you read Swift - because if you think that that is a 'pretty good' version, I can't imagine you have.

It is easy to belittle and make superfluous mocking fantasy- that is not parody - but it is a tactic often used of this board by people who seemingly think they know what's what. I just call it plain and simple - BS



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18 Apr 2009, 5:04 pm

Concenik wrote:
Quote:
Image

What you don't seem to understand is that the common 'Jews' are being prepped for yet another 'Holocaust'. I don't think many here are deep thinking enough to actually grasp the nature of this system. FFS talk about never learning from his story - you guys make me sad, you're so up yourselves and without doubt - is aspie a byword for automaton conformist or what??

Yeah yeah, everything began with 'the enlightenment.' suckers

I SPIT ON YOUR IGNORANCE (WITH PHLEGM!!)


you mean that lots of Jews will be killed again???


yeah, unless people get enough brains to start fathoming this s**t, for sure.



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18 Apr 2009, 8:43 pm

Concenik wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
I can't wait to get my diagnosis - I'm the aspie that going to kick you arrogant fwits out of your ivory towers. 'we are so clued in and clever cos we're aspies' - SUCH TOSH obviously.

I haven't seen much of that type of attitude in PPR, actually.


Maybe you should look inward :twisted:

I don't think I tend to make any claims of superiority on the basis of my autism. Would you care to disprove me with a quote?

Re Swift: Yes, I've read some of his stuff. It's not realistic to compare a forum post to Switft (as I said, "Drizzleman's post was not on the level of Swiftian parody") but it was certainly parody.

Parody: noun: any humorous, satirical, or burlesque imitation, as of a person, event, etc.
In case more clarification is needed: Satire: noun: noun: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc

I don't see how Drizzleman's post could not fall under the category of parody, as he was clearly using sarcasm, irony, and ridicule in an attempt to make a humorous, burlesque imitation of Holocaust deniers. That you are the target of such ridicule does not change the fact that it is parody.

*All definitions are from dictionary.com.


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19 Apr 2009, 12:04 am

As much as I am disgusted and horrified by Israel flaunting the horror of the Holocaust to justify its vicious criminal behavior towards a basically helpless people I cannot deny it happened and appreciate that it should not reoccur. I lived through the depression and WWII and remember clearly the misbehavior of the western world towards Jews and black people and other minorities in that time. I do not feel charitable towards those who would dismiss it as an aberrant misremembering. Parody is fully justified.



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19 Apr 2009, 1:59 pm

Orwell wrote:
Concenik wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
I can't wait to get my diagnosis - I'm the aspie that going to kick you arrogant fwits out of your ivory towers. 'we are so clued in and clever cos we're aspies' - SUCH TOSH obviously.

I haven't seen much of that type of attitude in PPR, actually.


Maybe you should look inward :twisted:

I don't think I tend to make any claims of superiority on the basis of my autism. Would you care to disprove me with a quote?

Re Swift: Yes, I've read some of his stuff. It's not realistic to compare a forum post to Switft (as I said, "Drizzleman's post was not on the level of Swiftian parody") but it was certainly parody.

Parody: noun: any humorous, satirical, or burlesque imitation, as of a person, event, etc.
In case more clarification is needed: Satire: noun: noun: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc

I don't see how Drizzleman's post could not fall under the category of parody, as he was clearly using sarcasm, irony, and ridicule in an attempt to make a humorous, burlesque imitation of Holocaust deniers. That you are the target of such ridicule does not change the fact that it is parody.

*All definitions are from dictionary.com.


Yes yes, sorry old boy, I was being a bit of a c*nt at that juncture - nevertheless 'brilliant' is stretching it just a tiny bit. - 'inane' would have been my word of choice *shrugs*

each to their own. btw. I have seen that attitude displayed here - if you haven't, it may be because your immune to it.



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19 Apr 2009, 2:07 pm

Concenik wrote:
nevertheless 'brilliant' is stretching it just a tiny bit. - 'inane' would have been my word of choice *shrugs*

If we bring Swift into it, then by comparison most other satire is inane. I thought it was quite good for a forum post. "Brilliant" is stretching it, though.

Quote:
I have seen that attitude displayed here - if you haven't, it may be because your immune to it.

I see a bit of Aspie supremacism around WP, but it seems to be less prevalent in PPR than in, say, General or Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation. Part of why I hang out in PPR more. We had at least one Aspie supremacist fairly recently (Zyborg, I think he called himself) but for the most part such people meet general disapproval in PPR.


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19 Apr 2009, 2:08 pm

Sand wrote:
As much as I am disgusted and horrified by Israel flaunting the horror of the Holocaust to justify its vicious criminal behavior towards a basically helpless people I cannot deny it happened and appreciate that it should not reoccur. I lived through the depression and WWII and remember clearly the misbehavior of the western world towards Jews and black people and other minorities in that time. I do not feel charitable towards those who would dismiss it as an aberrant misremembering. Parody is fully justified.


nice opening caveat though. I see that we're once again mired in the emotional argument and let the facts bob off like butterflies.

what's charity got to do with it? The parody was superfluous, anybody can make a mockery of something they can't handle *shrugs*

I suggest it's better to just look at the facts, emotional arguments and juvenile witticisms aside.

The point is that the history is incorrect and it was exaggerated to facilitate the creation of the very same apartheid state that you have here initially criticised.



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19 Apr 2009, 2:11 pm

Orwell wrote:
Concenik wrote:
nevertheless 'brilliant' is stretching it just a tiny bit. - 'inane' would have been my word of choice *shrugs*

If we bring Swift into it, then by comparison most other satire is inane. I thought it was quite good for a forum post. "Brilliant" is stretching it, though.

Quote:
I have seen that attitude displayed here - if you haven't, it may be because your immune to it.

I see a bit of Aspie supremacism around WP, but it seems to be less prevalent in PPR than in, say, General or Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation. Part of why I hang out in PPR more. We had at least one Aspie supremacist fairly recently (Zyborg, I think he called himself) but for the most part such people meet general disapproval in PPR.


Good to know. Apologies again for my rancor.



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19 Apr 2009, 2:20 pm

Concenik wrote:
The point is that the history is incorrect and it was exaggerated to facilitate the creation of the very same apartheid state that you have here initially criticised.

Rejecting mainstream history requires a fair amount of substantial evidence. Undoubtedly you will claim to have such, but the Holocaust really just isn't the most interesting part of history to me and so my response would be to not care about quibbling over whether it was 6 million or 1 million or whatever number. That the Holocaust occurred seems undeniable, so the only thing that could really be disputed is the number. I'm not interested enough in Holocaust history to feel like studying it in depth to establish a particular number. In any case, just say "a lot" and let it end there. :shrug:


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20 Apr 2009, 10:35 am

Orwell wrote:
I'm not interested enough in Holocaust history to feel like studying it in depth to establish a particular number. In any case, just say "a lot" and let it end there. :shrug:


I can understand that POV but to some, more hinges on the issue.



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20 Apr 2009, 10:46 am

denial of the holocaust is an opinion and a point of view. it can easily be argued against, and thats the whole point of free speech.

i deny that jesus, the "historical" person, ever existed. should that be worse, or better?


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21 Apr 2009, 7:51 am

http://buchanan.org/blog/pjb-the-true-haters-1495

PJB: The True Haters
>>> Join the forum discussion on this post... - (40) Posts

by Patrick J. Buchanan

On Good Friday, John Demjanjuk, 89 and gravely ill, was ordered deported to Germany to stand trial as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews — at Sobibor camp in Poland.

Sound familiar? It should. It is a re-enactment of the 1986 extradition of John Demjanjuk to Israel to be tried for the murder of 870,000 Jews — at Treblinka camp in Poland.

How many men in the history of this country have been so relentlessly pursued and remorselessly persecuted?

The ordeal of this American Dreyfus began 30 years ago.

In 1979, the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) at Justice, goaded and guided by Yuri Andropov’s KGB, was persuaded that Demjanjuk was “Ivan the Terrible,” a huge, brutal, sadistic guard at Treblinka, who bashed in babies’ heads and slashed off women’s breasts, as he drove hundreds of thousands of Jews into the gas chambers.

Demjanjuk’s defense was simple: I was never at Treblinka.

Yet, a dozen survivors, shown a photo spread, identified him as the beast of Treblinka. In 1986, OSI had him extradited to Israel. In 1988, he was convicted and sentenced to death. The greatest Holocaust monster since Mengele was to be hanged.

His family, friends and lawyers did not give up. They scoured Europe and, in the last days of the Soviet Union, struck pay dirt. In Moscow’s files on Treblinka they discovered a photo of the real “Ivan,” a far bigger, more mature man than the 23-year-old Demjanjuk in 1943.

Ivan Marchenko was positively identified as Ivan the Terrible.

To its eternal credit, Israel’s Supreme Court threw aside the verdict and stopped Demjanjuk from being the first man hanged in Jerusalem since Adolf Eichmann in 1961.

A humiliated OSI, through its Israeli friends, now asked the court to authorize a new trial, charging Demjanjuk with having been a guard at Sobibor — during the same time they previously charged he had been at Treblinka.

What OSI was admitting was that its case against Demjanjuk, to see him hang from the gallows as “Ivan the Terrible,” had been based on flimsy or falsified evidence and worthless or perjured testimony.

Replied the court, we don’t do double jeopardy here in Israel.

Demjanjuk was released. And the grin of the jailer who opened his cell testified that many in Israel never accepted the charge that this simple man was some unrivaled devil of the Holocaust.

So, after 13 years, the last four on death row reflecting on his hanging for horrors he never committed, Demjanjuk came home to Cleveland, a free man. His citizenship was restored.

Though disgraced, OSI was not ready to throw in its hand. For it had been dealt a new card by its old comrades in the KGB.

The new evidence was a signed statement by one “Danilchenko,” who claimed to have been a guard at Sobibor and had worked with Demjanjuk. As this document would have blown up the Treblinka case in Jerusalem, OSI had withheld it from the defense.

Another document turned up suggesting that Demjanjuk had indeed, after training at Trawniki camp, been assigned to Sobibor.

When the defense asked to interrogate “Danilchenko,” to verify he had made and signed the statement and to question him on details, they were told this was not possible. Seems Danilchenko had died after signing.

So, after the first 13 years of his ordeal took him right up to a gallows in Jerusalem, Demjanjuk has now been pursued for another 17 years by an OSI that will not rest until he has been convicted, somewhere, of genocide.

And so we come to today.

Demjanjuk is to be taken to Germany and prosecuted as an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor — though not one living person can place him at that camp and not even the German prosecutor will say that he ever hurt anyone. One witness in Israel, who was at Sobibor and says he knew all the camp guards, says he never saw Demjanjuk there.

If Friday’s ruling is upheld, John Demjanjuk, who has been charged with no crime on German soil, is to be taken to Germany, home of the Third Reich, to be tried by Germans for his alleged role in a genocide planned and perpetrated by Germans. He is to serve as the sacrificial lamb whose blood washes away the stain of Germany’s sins.

But if Germans wish to prosecute participants in the Holocaust, why not round up some old big-time Nazis, instead of a Ukrainian POW.

Answer: They cannot. Because the Germans voted an amnesty for themselves in 1969. So now they must find a Slav soldier they captured — and Heinrich Himmler’s SS conscripted and made a camp guard, if he ever was a camp guard — to punish in expiation for Germany’s sins.

<snip>



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21 Apr 2009, 10:51 am

Whether he was guilty or not as an individual it says nothing about the reality of the crimes. Just as the guilt or innocence of OJ doesnt change the fact that two people are dead.

My wife had a family member in the OSI in WWII, saw the camps, took photos, etc. He didnt have a very nice view of the germans. I cant remember which camp it was but he had photos of executed jews in piles, stacked on beds, etc. He was part of an investigative unit iirc.



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21 Apr 2009, 12:46 pm

Pogue wrote:
Whether he was guilty or not as an individual it says nothing about the reality of the crimes. Just as the guilt or innocence of OJ doesnt change the fact that two people are dead.

My wife had a family member in the OSI in WWII, saw the camps, took photos, etc. He didnt have a very nice view of the germans. I cant remember which camp it was but he had photos of executed jews in piles, stacked on beds, etc. He was part of an investigative unit iirc.


OSI - are worthy of some investigation themselves.

The often used footage of bodies being bulldozed into pits come from Belsen where a huge amount of inmates died from gastrointestinal complications after having been fed too much after liberation. This event is swept under the carpet and the footage often used to illustrate the atrocities of the Nazis - the atrocity was they left these people starving and quarantined to die as Typhus spread through the camp, whilst there was an SS medical building less than 2km away - this was toward the very end of the war obviously, when Germany was utterly broken and in disarray - records show that until this point disease in the camp was limited *shrugs*.but the oft cited official story is that the allies arrived to find everyone executed as inhumane as the actual reality in this specific case nonetheless was.


Also, it is my conjecture that the amount of people dying from Typhus and being left untreated to die from Typhus in MANY of the camps is still tantamount to an act of genocide. I just dispute the claims of systematic slaughter as the logistics do NOT stand up to scrutiny.

The official version of events all relates to UN resolution 181 - that is the crux of the matter and you might investigate who owns Israel - because the common Jew is in the process of being set up once again for slaughter - yes, it is important to learn from history but seemingly many haven't.

No offence to your relative in particular but the OSI have been shown to have been involved in psyops and the veracity of their material is highly questionable be it shrunken heads put on display at Buchenwald main camp or expose's of fabricated statistics at the time transit camps were in operation etc etc.

I could recount emotional testimonies I have heard too, as so far this appears to been the best efforts of debunking the debunker on this thread thus far..

And in terms of prejudice against the Germans, it's probably bears rth mentioning the very hidden history of Polish concentration camps for Germans before the NSDAP had even built their first KZ during WW2...or the massacares of Germans that took place at the hands of advancing allied troops.

It is a dirty history - yes, the Nazis were disgusting murderers but the official painting of the history is a fraud.



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21 Apr 2009, 1:06 pm

Pogue wrote:
Whether he was guilty or not as an individual it says nothing about the reality of the crimes. Just as the guilt or innocence of OJ doesnt change the fact that two people are dead.

My wife had a family member in the OSI in WWII, saw the camps, took photos, etc. He didnt have a very nice view of the germans. I cant remember which camp it was but he had photos of executed jews in piles, stacked on beds, etc. He was part of an investigative unit iirc.


Well it does illustrate beyond reasonable doubt that there is/was a lot of duplicitous BS flying around concerning the event, don't you think?



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21 Apr 2009, 2:21 pm

Concenik wrote:
Pogue wrote:
Whether he was guilty or not as an individual it says nothing about the reality of the crimes. Just as the guilt or innocence of OJ doesnt change the fact that two people are dead.

My wife had a family member in the OSI in WWII, saw the camps, took photos, etc. He didnt have a very nice view of the germans. I cant remember which camp it was but he had photos of executed jews in piles, stacked on beds, etc. He was part of an investigative unit iirc.


Well it does illustrate beyond reasonable doubt that there is/was a lot of duplicitous BS flying around concerning the event, don't you think?


When you look at the world through BS colored glasses it all looks like BS.