Do you think Microsoft will make Linux illegal?

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Fuzzy
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06 Jul 2010, 9:33 am

Ichinin wrote:
ReactOS is cool, but it desperately need NTFS, USB and network support. And i haven't even tried running games in it so how well DX9(or above) works is unknown to me...

However, in time, it could become a nice alternative.


If WINE is anything to go by, it'll be a 20 year effort. :P


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06 Jul 2010, 12:07 pm

You have to remember that ReactOS is still in its apha stage. It was not until recently that enough professional programmers began working on it to bring it to a stage of near completion. The problem with Windows compatibility is that Windows keeps changing, so any OS or software that intends to be compatible with it or with Windows software (e.g. Wine and ReactOS) is constantly having to play catch-up. Micro$oft may not be the omnipotent behemoth that it was in the late 90s, but it is still very powerful and pretty much dictates what happens in the software world.


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06 Jul 2010, 12:12 pm

What's the point of ReactOS? Do we really need a Windows clone? :?



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06 Jul 2010, 12:18 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
What's the point of ReactOS? Do we really need a Windows clone? :?


ReactOS is free. That's its advantage over Windows. Generally speaking, Windows NT-based systems have the advantage of familiarity. So with ReactOS you have some of the advantages of both Linux (free) and Windows (familiar).


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Last edited by LordoftheMonkeys on 06 Jul 2010, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Asp-Z
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06 Jul 2010, 12:22 pm

LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
What's the point of ReactOS? Do we really need a Windows clone? :?


ReactOS is free. That's its advantage over Windows.


If you have the technical ability to download the ISO for an alpha OS, burn it, and install it, surely you'd either install a UNIX system or pirate the proper Windows? I for one would install OSx86 onto my PC.



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06 Jul 2010, 1:32 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
What's the point of ReactOS? Do we really need a Windows clone? :?


ReactOS is free. That's its advantage over Windows.


If you have the technical ability to download the ISO for an alpha OS, burn it, and install it, surely you'd either install a UNIX system or pirate the proper Windows? I for one would install OSx86 onto my PC.


The API is written without the wide open holes present in windows. Its a much cleaner implementation. One thing it borrows from linux is the concept of a repository for common software.

But your suggestion that people with technical ability are more prone to piracy is the most interesting thing about your post. Looking at your avatar and profile I see that you want to be a billionaire. Your suggested connection between technical knowledge and illegal activity seems a tacit admission that the more you come to know about business, the more you'll game the system, ethics be damned.

Are you really such a swell human being?


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06 Jul 2010, 1:32 pm

Ichinin wrote:
peterd wrote:
If decency prevails, software patents won't survive and M$ won't either.


MS dont need software patents. They got a sect of followers called "Business users".

The day there is a Linux Distro:
1. That is easy to use for the end user
2. Has everything Windows and the Office software suit has.
3. Is easy to use for an MS trained tech
4. Integrates fully with AD and similar technologies
5. Gets good gaming support

On that day, MS stock will drop over time and diminish into nothingness.

You can talk about "Linux superiority" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Linux have been superior for years just as the Amiga was superior to the DOS PC in a GIGANTIC way (Multitasking, HAM, several DMA channels and the Intuition technologies), but technological superiority in computing changed nothing - nothing.

You got to affect the userbase, then things will happen.


On Ubuntu:

1: Extremely simple for the end user. Pretty much anything basic you can think of is preinstalled, including a fully functioning office suite that can save just fine in MS's proprietary .doc format. Anything you want can be installed through the synaptic package manager, which cuts out the whole 'compiling' fear people seem to have. It's just like running a .exe in windows.

2: Ubuntu comes with a media player, a music player, an office suite, a text editor, a bittorrent client for those who care, and an instant messaging service. This is just the base install. That's more than a base windows install comes with, faster, cleaner and free. Again with the office suite, it's simple to use and can access anything created in MS word or Excel.

3: Any decent MS trained tech would find Ubuntu easy to use. In fact, every single person I know who has paid thousands of dollars for the worthless MCSE/MCSA certifications uses some flavour of Linux at home. Maybe you're the exception, but that's my understanding. So any MS trained tech would have no trouble using the system. The only difference is bash/dash VS dos commands. Bash and Dash are actually far more intuitive, anyone who has used a computer for any length of time knows the simplest route. These two command systems follow it, not MS.

4: I have no clue was AD is, nor anything similar to it, so I'll just say that if your device or tech isn't working in Linux, it's because a geek is napping. Everything gets opensourced as much as possible as soon as possible. The main roadblock to full compatibility is money. There's little money to be made off the smaller *Nix user base, so the companies creating and releasing the cutting edge tech don't bother. It's sad but true. We can vote with our wallets and our computers. Use *Nix, this WILL change.

5: Gaming support is one that's thrown out a LOT in the MS VS *Nix argument. Most current PC games require DirectX, but this isn't because it's what's best for the game. It's what's best for the company producing it. Again, this would be a simple enough fix, fixing the problems with OpenGL and porting games to it. A stable third party system will fare much better in the long run than a proprietary pile of steaming MS crap that only works half the time. Vote with your feet and your wallet, you'll get great gaming support on *Nix soon enough. It just takes time.

As you can see, I am a HUGE supporter of the *Nix movement. Open software is the way of the future, it's companies like Microsoft trying to hold onto the glory days that are holding people back. If we could get just one friend to use a *Nix variant, and that one friend got another to use it as well, conglomerates would be destroyed, leaving the path open for true advancement. It's time for a revolution, people. When the net was new, random sites created by anyone were the norm. We evolved into a mash of crappy myspace clones, all trying to keep us in their network. That too shall pass. Neutrality. That's the way.

Sorry if you must TL;DR this, I know I have a gob.


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06 Jul 2010, 7:59 pm

kip wrote:
5: Gaming support is one that's thrown out a LOT in the MS VS *Nix argument. Most current PC games require DirectX, but this isn't because it's what's best for the game. It's what's best for the company producing it. Again, this would be a simple enough fix, fixing the problems with OpenGL and porting games to it. A stable third party system will fare much better in the long run than a proprietary pile of steaming MS crap that only works half the time. Vote with your feet and your wallet, you'll get great gaming support on *Nix soon enough. It just takes time.


Exactly correct. Looking at the console and handheld machines, we see directx massively overshadowed by opengl. Partly this is MS not wanting anyone to compete against their xbox system. Keeping it unavailable raises game development costs for anyone that wants to be cross platform, but it allows opengl to take up the rest of the market. They do the same sort of thing with computers, but it works better because they already dominate.

They are in a bit of a tight spot. They could freely license direct X to Apple, but then OSX ownership would climb at their expense(because more games would become available). On the other hand, maintaining the status quo means that more and more entertainment systems will take opengl(the only other viable choice), and since its available for windows too, MS will lose their ability to exert influence on game publishing. And Apple and Linux will gain market share. Anyway.


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07 Jul 2010, 2:35 am

kip wrote:
Ichinin wrote:
peterd wrote:
If decency prevails, software patents won't survive and M$ won't either.


MS dont need software patents. They got a sect of followers called "Business users".

The day there is a Linux Distro:
1. That is easy to use for the end user
2. Has everything Windows and the Office software suit has.
3. Is easy to use for an MS trained tech
4. Integrates fully with AD and similar technologies
5. Gets good gaming support

On that day, MS stock will drop over time and diminish into nothingness.

You can talk about "Linux superiority" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Linux have been superior for years just as the Amiga was superior to the DOS PC in a GIGANTIC way (Multitasking, HAM, several DMA channels and the Intuition technologies), but technological superiority in computing changed nothing - nothing.

You got to affect the userbase, then things will happen.


On Ubuntu:

1: Extremely simple for the end user. Pretty much anything basic you can think of is preinstalled, including a fully functioning office suite that can save just fine in MS's proprietary .doc format. Anything you want can be installed through the synaptic package manager, which cuts out the whole 'compiling' fear people seem to have. It's just like running a .exe in windows.

2: Ubuntu comes with a media player, a music player, an office suite, a text editor, a bittorrent client for those who care, and an instant messaging service. This is just the base install. That's more than a base windows install comes with, faster, cleaner and free. Again with the office suite, it's simple to use and can access anything created in MS word or Excel.

3: Any decent MS trained tech would find Ubuntu easy to use. In fact, every single person I know who has paid thousands of dollars for the worthless MCSE/MCSA certifications uses some flavour of Linux at home. Maybe you're the exception, but that's my understanding. So any MS trained tech would have no trouble using the system. The only difference is bash/dash VS dos commands. Bash and Dash are actually far more intuitive, anyone who has used a computer for any length of time knows the simplest route. These two command systems follow it, not MS.

4: I have no clue was AD is, nor anything similar to it, so I'll just say that if your device or tech isn't working in Linux, it's because a geek is napping. Everything gets opensourced as much as possible as soon as possible. The main roadblock to full compatibility is money. There's little money to be made off the smaller *Nix user base, so the companies creating and releasing the cutting edge tech don't bother. It's sad but true. We can vote with our wallets and our computers. Use *Nix, this WILL change.

5: Gaming support is one that's thrown out a LOT in the MS VS *Nix argument. Most current PC games require DirectX, but this isn't because it's what's best for the game. It's what's best for the company producing it. Again, this would be a simple enough fix, fixing the problems with OpenGL and porting games to it. A stable third party system will fare much better in the long run than a proprietary pile of steaming MS crap that only works half the time. Vote with your feet and your wallet, you'll get great gaming support on *Nix soon enough. It just takes time.

As you can see, I am a HUGE supporter of the *Nix movement. Open software is the way of the future, it's companies like Microsoft trying to hold onto the glory days that are holding people back. If we could get just one friend to use a *Nix variant, and that one friend got another to use it as well, conglomerates would be destroyed, leaving the path open for true advancement. It's time for a revolution, people. When the net was new, random sites created by anyone were the norm. We evolved into a mash of crappy myspace clones, all trying to keep us in their network. That too shall pass. Neutrality. That's the way.

Sorry if you must TL;DR this, I know I have a gob.


Again:
You can talk about "Linux superiority" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Linux have been superior for years just as the Amiga was superior to the DOS PC in a GIGANTIC way (Multitasking, HAM, several DMA channels and the Intuition technologies), but technological superiority in computing changed nothing - nothing.

1. The end user is usually an idiot that has to take a class to learn the GUI. Most people are not intuitive users. Why do you think MS changes the layout of each os and make new useless certifications?

3. No, they would not. You are giving too much credit to Windows Techs. Step out into the real world and smell the roses.

4. Sorry but if you do not know what a thing is, then you maby should at least google it before making a comment. AD support is required before you fully can switch over to something else.

5. The solution you propose is just not viable. Unless you want to port all games to OpenGL yourself. It HAS to be something that runs "out of the box" ir it will FAIL.

And as for you being a "HUGE supporter of the *Nix movement", that is just the problem, you are all sitting in your fantasy world and have not seen the real world in which real people live and work. Windows is King and Linux are "here and there" in the occasional server halls. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH YOU LIKE LINUX/UNIX/MAC OS, Business do not give a flying s**t about the features of those systems, they want something that works and that "everyone" knows. I gave you the example above with VHS. It was not the best brand, it was technologically inferior to V2000 and Beta Max, but it "won" because there were more stuff to rent for it.

To sum up: Its not mostly power users that use computers, its joe average that knows how to turn on a box and fire up internet explorer that controls what is what. People, not technology decides what is "in" or not. No matter how bad and anti-progressive that is.

But sure, if you think that Linux as it exists today will win over Windows, then i have some realestate on the moon i'd like to sell to you...


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Asp-Z
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07 Jul 2010, 3:04 am

Fuzzy wrote:
The API is written without the wide open holes present in windows. Its a much cleaner implementation. One thing it borrows from linux is the concept of a repository for common software.


I see.

Quote:
But your suggestion that people with technical ability are more prone to piracy is the most interesting thing about your post. Looking at your avatar and profile I see that you want to be a billionaire. Your suggested connection between technical knowledge and illegal activity seems a tacit admission that the more you come to know about business, the more you'll game the system, ethics be damned.

Are you really such a swell human being?


No, I'm saying people who want Windows but don't want to pay for it are more likely to pirate the real thing than download an alpha version of a clone.

And as for the ethics stuff, let me ask you... Did Bill Gates get as rich as he is because of strict ethics, or from being an extremely shrude businessman? I think you'll find it's the latter.



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07 Jul 2010, 3:33 am

Ichinin wrote:

Again:
You can talk about "Linux superiority" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Linux have been superior for years just as the Amiga was superior to the DOS PC in a GIGANTIC way (Multitasking, HAM, several DMA channels and the Intuition technologies), but technological superiority in computing changed nothing - nothing.


Of this I have little argument.

Quote:
1. The end user is usually an idiot that has to take a class to learn the GUI. Most people are not intuitive users. Why do you think MS changes the layout of each os and make new useless certifications?


A strange statement, but somewhat factual.

Quote:
3. No, they would not. You are giving too much credit to Windows Techs. Step out into the real world and smell the roses.


Haha! But really, I think he means that if nontechnician users of windows can learn to use linux - obviously some do -, then a fair portion of windows techs can too. For all their stupidity(your suggestion), some - if not most - of them have to be brighter than common windows users. That fact that they get paid to fix things suggests this pretty strongly.

Quote:
4. Sorry but if you do not know what a thing is, then you maby should at least google it before making a comment. AD support is required before you fully can switch over to something else.


I too dont know after nigh 20 years of windows use what AD means. It isnt and cant be on the lips of the proletariat, you know? Confounding the problem is that google sucks at two letter abbreviations.

"Active Directory (AD) is a Microsoft technology to unify the management of an organization's users, departments, and IT resources."
The best match I can make is this active directory, but I dont see how that has to do with switching over from windows to linux?

Quote:
5. The solution you propose is just not viable. Unless you want to port all games to OpenGL yourself. It HAS to be something that runs "out of the box" ir it will FAIL.

Get unstuck from the past. He means new games. New games are largely what drives the all important 13-35 year old gamer demographic to newer windows versions. Its why XP never received directx 10. It was a selling point of Vista. And now Seven features directx 11. New games push adoption of new windows releases. Business is happy with functional over cutting edge.

Quote:
And as for you being a "HUGE supporter of the *Nix movement", that is just the problem, you are all sitting in your fantasy world and have not seen the real world in which real people live and work. Windows is King and Linux are "here and there" in the occasional server halls. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH YOU LIKE LINUX/UNIX/MAC OS, Business do not give a flying sh** about the features of those systems, they want something that works and that "everyone" knows. I gave you the example above with VHS. It was not the best brand, it was technologically inferior to V2000 and Beta Max, but it "won" because there were more stuff to rent for it.


Quite right, and its exactly why we still all use VHS to this day. Because VHS is king and will never fall... Oh I cant back that line of bullshit up. How can you do it with windows? An admirable trait sir. I just hope the wind doesnt pick up.

Quote:
To sum up: Its not mostly power users that use computers, its joe average that knows how to turn on a box and fire up internet explorer that controls what is what. People, not technology decides what is "in" or not. No matter how bad and anti-progressive that is.


Again, you are completely right. And when all the little devices like your phone, your mp3 player, you car stereo, your home entertainment system, your gaming console, are all run on the same base operating system people will toss out the odd duck in the wood pile in favour of the most familiar.

The consensus on those devices? The most familiar? Who is dominating the phone market? Unix based iphone vs, linux based android vs... is MS even in the market? People are increasingly more familiar and hands on with the scions of unix.

Quote:
But sure, if you think that Linux as it exists today will win over Windows, then i have some realestate on the moon i'd like to sell to you...


I'll buy.


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Ichinin
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07 Jul 2010, 4:26 am

Fuzzy wrote:
Quote:
4. Sorry but if you do not know what a thing is, then you maby should at least google it before making a comment. AD support is required before you fully can switch over to something else.


I too dont know after nigh 20 years of windows use what AD means. It isnt and cant be on the lips of the proletariat, you know? Confounding the problem is that google sucks at two letter abbreviations.

"Active Directory (AD) is a Microsoft technology to unify the management of an organization's users, departments, and IT resources."
The best match I can make is this active directory, but I dont see how that has to do with switching over from windows to linux?


That is the correct definition of AD. Why? Well, because systems has to migrate from windows to Linux and to be able to use company network resources you have to have AD connectivity and support to interface with those resources. You cannot just throw everything away and assume that "Linux alone will save the day". I bet there are still Netware servers boxes here and there that cannot be removed because of the same problem. Everything isn't as simple as it looks, especially when you are an end user who does not connect to any other network than the internet.


Quote:
Quote:
5. The solution you propose is just not viable. Unless you want to port all games to OpenGL yourself. It HAS to be something that runs "out of the box" ir it will FAIL.


Get unstuck from the past. He means new games. New games are largely what drives the all important 13-35 year old gamer demographic to newer windows versions. Its why XP never received directx 10. It was a selling point of Vista. And now Seven features directx 11. New games push adoption of new windows releases. Business is happy with functional over cutting edge.


Past? I'm talking about the present. How the hell are you going to get game companies to start supporting OpenGL? It is not a viable solutions. Right now the Linux gaming community consists of like 3 people tinkering with Wine, would you spend 3 million in programmers wages to code support for their insignificant platform? Companies don't enjoy throwing money into the lake. No DX support, no reason for home users to switch.


Quote:
And as for you being a "HUGE supporter of the *Nix movement", that is just the problem, you are all sitting in your fantasy world and have not seen the real world in which real people live and work. Windows is King and Linux are "here and there" in the occasional server halls. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH YOU LIKE LINUX/UNIX/MAC OS, Business do not give a flying sh** about the features of those systems, they want something that works and that "everyone" knows. I gave you the example above with VHS. It was not the best brand, it was technologically inferior to V2000 and Beta Max, but it "won" because there were more stuff to rent for it.


Quite right, and its exactly why we still all use VHS to this day. Because VHS is king and will never fall... Oh I cant back that line of bullshit up. How can you do it with windows? An admirable trait sir. I just hope the wind doesnt pick up. [/quote]

VHS was king until DVD. Linux is not DVD. Or Blueray.


Quote:
Quote:
To sum up: Its not mostly power users that use computers, its joe average that knows how to turn on a box and fire up internet explorer that controls what is what. People, not technology decides what is "in" or not. No matter how bad and anti-progressive that is.


Again, you are completely right. And when all the little devices like your phone, your mp3 player, you car stereo, your home entertainment system, your gaming console, are all run on the same base operating system people will toss out the odd duck in the wood pile in favour of the most familiar.

The consensus on those devices? The most familiar? Who is dominating the phone market? Unix based iphone vs, linux based android vs... is MS even in the market? People are increasingly more familiar and hands on with the scions of unix.


Yes. MS has been in the phone bis since PocketPCs could fit SIM cards into them. The thing is, you are not running games or business apps in phones. Phones are for personal communications, and to a (very tiny) degree, entertainment. The problem is that you're never gonna get home users who play games or business users who run Excel to use Android instead of Windows on a PC.


Quote:
But sure, if you think that Linux as it exists today will win over Windows, then i have some realestate on the moon i'd like to sell to you...


I'll buy.[/quote]

I guessed as much...


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07 Jul 2010, 7:53 am

At any rate this is getting really off topic and has progressed into something of an OS flame war as often is the case with any discussion about operating systems on computer boards. Does it really matter that much what someone uses and in what setting and what their justifications for it are? Since you will be the one managing it, it relaly doesnt matter. I feel its worth mentioning though Ichinin, that just because microsoft holds dominance and does things a certain way does not mean that in order to be successful against them you should have to use their design and be compatible with it. There is such a thing as being successful all on your own ideas and in some instances it does win out. I believe the development philosophies of both *nix and Apple have shifted the entire industry in a way where microsoft will either change or die. And I would hazard a guess they are more than willing to change for successs. You can already see it. They are getting way more involved with their partners and trying to deliver the end to end experience the apple computer brings while at the same time getting heavily involved in open source / free software and standardized technologies. Microsoft has already lost because in a few key important ways they stopped being Microsoft, just look at internet explorer 9 preview and the dramatic push for compliant CSS, JS, and HTML5. Or look at Exchange Server and notice it has IMAP support, as well as outlook finally having IMAP support that isnt totally broken (though it still needs work). Sure its a tad bit late (understatement), but they are changing because if they dont adapt they will suffer more. My opinion on active directory is it will be a very hard thing to replicate for other systems, but that doesnt mean it hasnt been done to some extent and for most intents and purposes works fine, see Samba 4 (windows AD servers will replicate this as a PDC!) and OpenDirectory. AD is really just a mix of LDAP and Kerberos anyways for the most part. I dont think Microsoft or Windows will go anywhere anytime soon, but I think there is now pressure on them to actually deliver higher quality software, and delivering is in their best interest.



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07 Jul 2010, 2:21 pm

TOGGI3 wrote:
At any rate this is getting really off topic and has progressed into something of an OS flame war as often is the case with any discussion about operating systems on computer boards. Does it really matter that much what someone uses and in what setting and what their justifications for it are? Since you will be the one managing it, it relaly doesnt matter.


There is no OS flamewar going on. I'm not pro MS, i'm just commenting on the Linux zealots inability to realise how the world works. They are waving Linux flags around and think that it will help. An OS is just a tool for me, not a religion. Is OS/2 Warp could run games and the internet apps i want to use, then i could see it as a viable alternative to Windows - however, it does not. It is just as home-user friendly as Linux is.

And btw, It does matter when you realised that you want to interface with other organisations. How many ERP or other resource planning systems can you run on Linux? What ìnfrastructure is that kind of software built upon?


Quote:
I feel its worth mentioning though Ichinin, that just because microsoft holds dominance and does things a certain way does not mean that in order to be successful against them you should have to use their design and be compatible with it.


Again, missing the point of interoperability. If you sit alone in your garage and sell stuff on the web, and you do not work for a fortune 500, then you can run your corporation on a box with MSDos 3.30 and MS Works. The problem comes when you want support. How easily can you get hold of a Linux tech and how many billions of MS trained techs can you find in 15 minutes? Its the whole picture that counts.


Quote:
I dont think Microsoft or Windows will go anywhere anytime soon, but I think there is now pressure on them to actually deliver higher quality software, and delivering is in their best interest.


That i agree with. If close to zero cost software has the same qualities as commercial software has, then its time to whip the product developers harder.


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07 Jul 2010, 2:46 pm

Ichinin wrote:
Again, missing the point of interoperability. If you sit alone in your garage and sell stuff on the web, and you do not work for a fortune 500, then you can run your corporation on a box with MSDos 3.30 and MS Works. The problem comes when you want support. How easily can you get hold of a Linux tech and how many billions of MS trained techs can you find in 15 minutes? Its the whole picture that counts.

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/services

Its not that difficult, there are companies that devote everything to support. You really cant *find* support? I mean being unwilling to pay for it is one thing, but cant *find* it? I doubt it.

Its not like you are asking for support or amiga OS or QNX or anything, you are asking for support for Linux, and it does at least exist and is readily available if you want to pay for it. I mean it runs on the majority of web servers, not like help isnt available from people or corporations who understand it..

I work in web hosting as well as datacenter services and our team is a 100% Mac and Linux shop, as well as the majority of everyone we work with, we manage fine and theres no reason it doesn't work. We *could* run windows just as easily I suppose, but we have never had 'interoperability' issues. Its more than a little silly to tell others whats most useful for them as though you know their particular situation. Anything incompatible with UNIX applications or missing a bash shell is practically useless (or irritating to use because of all the required addon software) in my career.