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Borromeo
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13 Aug 2019, 7:15 pm

Right, kraftiekortie. Most people who are conservative don't identify with the Nazi movement. I'm conservative, mostly, and that makes me oppose Nationalism and Socialism vehemently. National Socialism, therefore, is the anathema.

Granted, they'll be people first, nationalists/socialists/Democrats/Republicans/Green Party second. Little trick that makes interactions simpler and more friendly.



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15 Aug 2019, 2:44 pm

Hello all,

I was uncomfortable with this for a variety of reasons but I do think I ultimately made the right decision.

So full transparency. I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going to try and address all the points made in this discussion, completely spell out my reasoning, and because some PMs I received from the banned user are relevant, I'm going to post them as well.

What is nationalism?
There are at least three relevant definitions of nationalism:

1) The belief that nation states should exist.
2) A twisted version of patriotism, as illustrated by Fnord's examples, which emphasises the supremacy of one's country.
3) The belief that only certain people deserve to live in your country, particularly with reference to race, ethnicity, language, or religion.

Is nationalism acceptable on WrongPlanet?

WrongPlanet's rules do not mention nationalism specifically. Therefore, nationalism is acceptable as long as it doesn't break any of the other rules.

Type 1 nationalism seems to be an extremely common view held by the vast majority of people.
Type 2 nationalism is more controversial, but on the face of it wouldn't seem to break any rules.
Type 3 nationalism breaks WrongPlanet's rule against racism.

Are nationalists allowed on WrongPlanet?

WrongPlanet users can only judge each other based on what they contribute to WrongPlanet. So if someone secretly supports Type 3 nationalism, but doesn't express that view on WrongPlanet, then that's fine. There is no thought police.

At least one PPR regular, earlier in his time posting on WP, indicated support for Type 3 nationalism. This led to moderator action, which led to him changing the contents of his posts. I don't believe he has changed his views, but he now appears to be just an atypical social conservative.

I would have liked it if Acteon could have gone down this route, but he found the notion disagreeable. While that's understandable, ultimately he had a choice between compromising on his values or not posting on WrongPlanet, and he chose being aggressively nationalist over being included.

Acteon seemed to be in a really bad place - shouldn't WrongPlanet be trying to help him?

To an extent, yes. I spelled out to Acteon what he needed to do to remain on WrongPlanet, but he prioritised being openly racist ahead of getting help.

There are many users with mental health issues on WrongPlanet. The vast majority are lovely people, and don't post racist content. Allowing someone to post racist content would have the effect of putting off other users. I do believe we've already seen this in action due to our tolerance of far-right users on WrongPlanet, which has led to a big reduction in moderate voices.

Should our rules disallow Type 2 nationalism?

I don't think it would be right for me as a moderator to comment on this too much, but there are good arguments either way.

What did Walrus and Acteon say in their PMs?

After Enviro warned Acteon, he created two threads in "Autism Media Representation". I locked the first, here: viewtopic.php?t=379347

That prompted this PM, entitled "Dictator":

Acteon wrote:
Thanks Stalin. You going throw me in the gulag for not being a liberal. Read 1984

I then responded:
Walrus wrote:
Nineteen Eighty-Four was written by a man who fought in not just one, but two wars against people who wanted their societies to be racially pure.

WrongPlanet's rules are clear. You can choose whether to obey them or not, but I will not allow you to say racist things just because treating you fairly hurts your feelings.

Look, bluntly - we honestly do want you here. We go out of our way to try and be as inclusive as possible. But you can't go saying racist things - that makes other users extremely uncomfortable.

We can only grow as people if we examine our opinions closely, exercise self-control, and try to get along with other people. You're clearly not some sort of monster. But please understand that you're not allowed to say that sort of thing. I don't care if you believe it to be true, as long as you don't actually say it. Lots of our users are privately racist but they just keep those views to themselves and stay posting here.

Two comments on this message:

1) Orwell did fight in the Spanish Civil War, but not in WWII - he applied for service but was rejected and instead produced pro-war propaganda.

2) "Treating you fairly hurts your feelings" was an attempt to use his own rhetoric against him. I hoped it would help him look at his behaviour from another perspective. In hindsight it was probably not the right approach.

Acteon wrote:
Actually, 1984 warns of the dangers of communism. You would fit right into that community. Power hungry. Kill anyone labelled “racist”. Why don’t you slap on stars and line them up. I’m sure that’s what you’re itching to do.

Acteon wrote:
By the way, I will always say my beliefs because they aren’t racist. I’m not ashamed of them, because I’m not a racist. See how it works?

Keep labelling me as that, it comes right off.

This, to me, seemed like a clear rejection of my request for him to stop saying racist things. But I still thought we could have a dialogue and come to some sort of understanding.
The_Walrus wrote:
What do you think racism is?

In response, Acteon sent his final PM to me. It was to a moderately famous "European nationalist" website. And no, it isn't a friendly site calling for pan-European harmony, quite the opposite - most of its articles seem to actual concern the USA. The article in question was one claiming that the word "racism" was invented by Leon Trotsky (strange to invoke Trotsky as a demonic figure after invoking famous Trotskyite George Orwell as a positive figure) and today is used as a way to slander "the opponents of Marxism".

Unfortunately at this point I saw no real prospect of constructive dialogue, or of Acteon choosing to moderate his public expressions of nationalism. This is particularly evidenced by the fact that he has already lost friends and been banned from Twitter for his views. After I locked his thread, he posted another one encouraging users to join a far-right social network.

As much as I would like for Acteon to find a home here, that cannot come at the expense of tolerating racism.



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15 Aug 2019, 2:53 pm

A lot of good, quotable material there, Walrus.


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 3:00 pm

Is it fair for a mod to ban people because of their own biased and misguided views? Why is it not OK for a user to support European countries mainly having indigenous people in their country but it is OK for a mod to openly support blowing up numerous countries?


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 3:02 pm

We also have users that pretty much said that the US state should murder Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning. :roll:


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15 Aug 2019, 3:04 pm

Let's say for argument's sake he is racist. How is that worse than advocating the state execution of whistleblowers and journalists? And the state mass murder of millions in illegal wars?


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15 Aug 2019, 3:19 pm

So the message is, everyone's welcome, apart from those who carry out wrongthink crimes? I might have been able to change him from being an ethno stater.


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15 Aug 2019, 3:32 pm

Everybody IS welcome, as long as they don't encourage or promote the unfair or prejudicial treatment of people and groups based on characteristics such as race, gender, age, disability, nationality, culture, religion, political persuasion, citizenship status or sexual orientation. Those that do are shown the way out.

Baiting the moderators into senseless arguments should also be a bannable offense.


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 4:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
Everybody IS welcome, as long as they don't encourage or promote the unfair or prejudicial treatment of people and groups based on characteristics such as race, gender, age, disability, nationality, culture, religion, political persuasion, citizenship status or sexual orientation. Those that do are shown the way out.

Baiting the moderators into senseless arguments should also be a bannable offense.


You both support Israel so should both be banned by your own standards. I will just tell the truth as i see it, not blow smoke up.... to get special treatment. You have attacked me and other members personally hundreds of times but always get away with it.

Do you think advocating people to be murdered by the state is not unjust and prejudiced? Try to stick to your own 'rules'.


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Fnord
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15 Aug 2019, 4:21 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Everybody IS welcome, as long as they don't encourage or promote the unfair or prejudicial treatment of people and groups based on characteristics such as race, gender, age, disability, nationality, culture, religion, political persuasion, citizenship status or sexual orientation. Those that do are shown the way out. Baiting the moderators into senseless arguments should also be a bannable offense.
You both support Israel so should both be banned by your own standards. I will just tell the truth as i see it, not blow smoke up.... to get special treatment. You have attacked me and other members personally hundreds of times but always get away with it. Do you think advocating people to be murdered by the state is not unjust and prejudiced? Try to stick to your own 'rules'.
I support Israel's right to exist, same as every other legitimate sovereign state. Saying I should be banned for it seems like some kind of racist statement.


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 4:24 pm

Did you support apartheid South Africa's right to exist? It's just hysterical propaganda. Israel can exist with equal rights for everyone, which you surely support without excuses.


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The_Walrus
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15 Aug 2019, 4:26 pm

You've asked quite a few questions there, John. I'll try to answer them.

1) Is it fair for a mod to ban people because of their own biased and misguided views?

I'm unsure whether you mean "because of the user's biased and misguided views" or "because of the mod's biased and misguided views". If the former, yes, if those views breach WrongPlanet rules. If the latter, strictly speaking the answer is no, but I suppose one could argue that the rules are "biased and misguided". It is the moderator's job to enforce the rules as best as they can. This may sometimes appear biased or unfair, but moderators should try to act in such a way as to minimise this perception.

2) Why is it not OK for a user to support European countries mainly having indigenous people in their country but it is OK for a mod to openly support blowing up numerous countries?

This seems like a bit of a silly hypothetical. As far as I am aware, no moderators have ever supported blowing up numerous countries. I don't believe a user who supported terrorism would be appointed a moderator.

WrongPlanet's rules explicitly forbid racism. White nationalism is a form of racism.

3) Let's say for argument's sake he is racist. How is that worse than advocating the state execution of whistleblowers and journalists? And the state mass murder of millions in illegal wars?

WrongPlanet's rules forbid racism. WrongPlanet's rules do not forbid support for the death penalty or for war necessarily. WrongPlanet's rules do not claim to be perfect measures of morality, they only dictate content which is acceptable on WrongPlanet. That content is not necessarily objectively "better" or "worse" than other content.

4) So the message is, everyone's welcome, apart from those who carry out wrongthink crimes?

As already stated, wrongthink is fine. Hate speech, on the other hand, is not.

Oh dear, those last three posts came in after I finished my post. Aaargh. Please let's keep the thread constructive and not get sidetracked on political discussions :)



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15 Aug 2019, 4:30 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
… Please let's keep the thread constructive and not get sidetracked on political discussions.
Yes, quite … sorry about that. When things start getting personal, it's hard to keep an even keel.


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 4:32 pm

Can you tell me one war you've been against Walrus?


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JohnPowell
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15 Aug 2019, 4:32 pm

Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
… Please let's keep the thread constructive and not get sidetracked on political discussions.
Yes, quite … sorry about that. When things start getting personal, it's hard to keep an even keel.


:roll:


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