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Pepe
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22 Oct 2021, 7:33 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Quote:
Last edited by Cornflake on 17 Oct 2021, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a racially-contentious comment

Yep that just proved it.
Not so -

Legal definition of freedom of speech: The right to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content and subject only to reasonable limitations (as the power of the government to avoid a clear and present danger) especially as guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... f%20speech

Thus, "freedom of speech" does not apply.

What you're complaining about is the removal of a remark for the reason given - that is, it was in breach of the site rules; those rules regarding behavior and what is permitted on a privately-owned website.

When it comes to private enterprise be it a business or a website there are no free speech rights, only freedom of expression privileges granted by the owner.


Have you missed the platform/pubisher debate? :scratch:



thinkinginpictures
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31 Dec 2021, 6:52 pm

On WP you cannot speak the truth, even when you say something that is clearly scientific (biologically) true.
viewtopic.php?t=402804#p8942116

If we are not allowed to speak of someone as male or female according to generalized physical/biological differences, how else are we supposed to cathegorize different types of people with these biological differences?



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31 Dec 2021, 7:27 pm

You're right, this whole thing has become bonkers, and shows no signs of reaching any limit. There's no doubt in my mind that even views which are no more than 'socially conservative', and were just regarded as plain 'commonsense' a decade or two ago, are often categorized as 'hate speech' today.

In the comments section of a leading UK newspaper a few months ago, one poster asked what would happen when large sections of the public began to protest against 'climate change' propaganda. I replied, very much tongue in cheek, that climate change scepticism would then be labelled as a form of hate speech. A couple of 'liberal' posters replied, accusing me of making ridiculous, alarmist claims.

Fast forward six months or so, and what do we find in one of the publications which specialize in this sort of thing?

https://hopenothate.org.uk/magazine/cli ... -of-doubt/


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thinkinginpictures
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31 Dec 2021, 7:37 pm

DeepHour wrote:
You're right, this whole thing has become bonkers, and shows no signs of reaching any limit. There's no doubt in my mind that even views which are no more than 'socially conservative', and were just regarded as plain 'commonsense' a decade or two ago, are often categorized as 'hate speech' today.

In the comments section of a leading UK newspaper a few months ago, one poster asked what would happen when large sections of the public began to protest against 'climate change' propaganda. I replied, very much tongue in cheek, that climate change scepticism would then be labelled as a form of hate speech. A couple of 'liberal' posters replied, accusing me of making ridiculous, alarmist claims.

Fast forward six months or so, and what do we find in one of the publications which specialize in this sort of thing?

https://hopenothate.org.uk/magazine/cli ... -of-doubt/


Exactly.

Political correctness has turned me away from the left.

I now only vote left for economic reasons, but I now find myself agreeing more with the policies of Trump and Orban more than Biden and other liberals.

The ultra-woke generation has couped the left/liberals in such a way that they are unrecognizable and don't speak the same language as common people holding common sense values.



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31 Dec 2021, 8:45 pm

From the 1960s to the 1980s, the Left protested against repression and censorship from the establishment. Fast forward a generation, these people become 'The Establishment' themselves, and impose censorship and 'cancel culture' on views with which they disagree. Almost too pathetic for words.


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kraftiekortie
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31 Dec 2021, 8:50 pm

I’m pretty anti-woke myself…..but to support someone like Trump is taking things too far.

Trump wanted to assume dictatorial powers for himself.



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01 Jan 2022, 12:34 am

I'm normally pretty understanding about the mods locking things, especially where the OP is concerned, but I did think this lock was unwarranted, that many questions about trans policy are still outstanding and fair game for discussion, and I didn't see anything I'd call transphobic in the thread. I really do think trans issues often bleed into de facto thought policing, as it's one thing to say "treat trans people with dignity and respect", and a completely different thing to say "you have to actually believe they are the gender they claim to be" and things to that effect.


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01 Jan 2022, 1:35 am

I remain politically correct here for the sake of not getting banned.


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thinkinginpictures
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01 Jan 2022, 4:29 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m pretty anti-woke myself…..but to support someone like Trump is taking things too far.

Trump wanted to assume dictatorial powers for himself.


Sure, but this kind of mod behavior is the recipe for disaster regarding liberalism and free speech.
If more people support Trump, it's understandable given the recent "liberal" record...

I thought liberal meant someone who believes in freedom. I was wrong.



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01 Jan 2022, 6:35 am

The 'liberalism' of 30 years ago has morphed into something very illiberal indeed.


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Cornflake
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01 Jan 2022, 8:19 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
On WP you cannot speak the truth, even when you say something that is clearly scientific (biologically) true.
viewtopic.php?t=402804#p8942116

If we are not allowed to speak of someone as male or female according to generalized physical/biological differences, how else are we supposed to cathegorize different types of people with these biological differences?
There's a world of difference between "talk" and "hate".

Apart from the general air of ridicule, dismissal and denigration on your thread "Gender is not a social-construct, but gender change is!", you said it in your own post there:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I don't understand the need to ban hatred.
There's no shame in hating anything and expressing some hatred.

We all hate something. It should be legal to say "I hate X!" without getting fined or persecuted."
If you don't understand why it's important on WP to disallow hating what someone deeply believes and understands to be an essential part of what makes them the person they are, then maybe other sites permitting those types of personal attack would be more appropriate.

Without changing very much your thread could easily be written to apply to Gays, Jews and even Autistic people - eg. "It's ridiculous - why should [X] be protected because of their [sexuality|religion|condition] when the rest of us aren't?"

It's a hair's breadth away from wishing or encouraging hatred of [X].

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Inciting false rumours or accusations is an entirely different thing altogether though. As are threats of violence or other illegal activities. I think those should be banned.

What's up next? You can't disagree with or "hate" your political opponents?
The trouble is, in creating that thread the border between hate of legislation and hate of those it's designed to protect becomes dangerously blurred.

Political entities (the party or a politician) are up for grabs but again, you're blurring that with calling to allow hatred of someone who is merely a political opponent. It's not Ok to hate someone on WP because of their political affiliation - or indeed their gender/sexual orientation, self-perceived or not; that's a personal attack and is not permitted.

As you know from some of your other posts, what you intend and what you write are not always the same thing and this has resulted in locks or removals. We make allowances for anyone posting what may be a reasonable sentiment poorly expressed but there are some cases - this being one of them - where it's not possible to allow what's said to continue at all.

Your assertion that gender change is a social construct dismisses in one sweep a Transgender person's lived, personal experiences - something very likely to result in feelings of disrespect and upset.

You wonder if this mod behavior is really how WP moderation is supposed to work?
Yes it is.

Our primary purpose is to maintain order on the forums through application of the site rules and as was stated when your thread was locked:
The_Walrus wrote:
Transphobia - including denying that people are the gender they identify as - is against WrongPlanet rules. We try to allow some latitude for particularly controversial topics (like how best to practically integrate cis and trans athletes in sports), but this crosses the line into just plain transphobia.
- the lock was implemented for the reasons clearly explained.

Starting discussions on the underlying nature of gender, especially when referencing so-called proofs, is a very hot potato and one which easily can, and has, caused upset for WP's Trans, non-binary and genderfluid members.

For this reason we would prefer it to not be discussed at all, in that form.

Other related issues as outlined by The_Walrus, while controversial, may be permitted.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m pretty anti-woke myself…..but to support someone like Trump is taking things too far.

Trump wanted to assume dictatorial powers for himself.

Sure, but this kind of mod behavior is the recipe for disaster regarding liberalism and free speech.
If more people support Trump, it's understandable given the recent "liberal" record...

I thought liberal meant someone who believes in freedom. I was wrong.
No, that's still correct - but there are necessary limitations on the expression of it here on WP, defined in the site rules.




Ref. quoted post: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=402804#p8941907


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Last edited by Cornflake on 02 Jan 2022, 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.: The thread has since been removed on request of OP

Nades
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01 Jan 2022, 8:33 am

Recently the British courts ruled that you must be male or female in regard to passports, and by extrapolation other documents too and probably an individual's discretion.

This was ruled because physical sex is determined at birth and makes an essential part of your biometric identity which is legally documented pretty much the second you come out of a womb. Someone might be able to personally identify as a different gender or even none at all, but if others choose to identify that person by their true physical sex it's not a form of hate.

When it comes to sex changes and surgery/hormone therapy though, it's still up for debate however, such an individual will always be their original sex genetically.

There was your typical undertones of aggressiveness from you though on that thread.



Joe90
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01 Jan 2022, 2:11 pm

Nades wrote:
Recently the British courts ruled that you must be male or female in regard to passports, and by extrapolation other documents too and probably an individual's discretion.

This was ruled because physical sex is determined at birth and makes an essential part of your biometric identity which is legally documented pretty much the second you come out of a womb. Someone might be able to personally identify as a different gender or even none at all, but if others choose to identify that person by their true physical sex it's not a form of hate.

When it comes to sex changes and surgery/hormone therapy though, it's still up for debate however, such an individual will always be their original sex genetically.

There was your typical undertones of aggressiveness from you though on that thread.


I've had non-binary females flirt with me here before, and I never quite know how to respond. What happens if a female who claims they're non-binary likes you? To me a non-binary female is still a female if they have a vagina, sorry to say.

All this gender political correctness gets confusing. I don't mind homosexuals or tomboy girls or feminine men but I just don't get all this gender neutral or non-binary stuff. In some situations separating people by gender is unavoidable, so what do they do with non-binary people? Like at high school in Phys Ed they were strict on separating the boys from the girls. The changing-rooms were even built in a way that boys didn't go anywhere near the girls changing-rooms and vice versa. What happens now that children get to choose their gender?


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Nades
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01 Jan 2022, 2:34 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Nades wrote:
Recently the British courts ruled that you must be male or female in regard to passports, and by extrapolation other documents too and probably an individual's discretion.

This was ruled because physical sex is determined at birth and makes an essential part of your biometric identity which is legally documented pretty much the second you come out of a womb. Someone might be able to personally identify as a different gender or even none at all, but if others choose to identify that person by their true physical sex it's not a form of hate.

When it comes to sex changes and surgery/hormone therapy though, it's still up for debate however, such an individual will always be their original sex genetically.

There was your typical undertones of aggressiveness from you though on that thread.


I've had non-binary females flirt with me here before, and I never quite know how to respond. What happens if a female who claims they're non-binary likes you? To me a non-binary female is still a female if they have a vagina, sorry to say.

All this gender political correctness gets confusing. I don't mind homosexuals or tomboy girls or feminine men but I just don't get all this gender neutral or non-binary stuff. In some situations separating people by gender is unavoidable, so what do they do with non-binary people? Like at high school in Phys Ed they were strict on separating the boys from the girls. The changing-rooms were even built in a way that boys didn't go anywhere near the girls changing-rooms and vice versa. What happens now that children get to choose their gender?


Being "trans" is and always has been easier to get to grips with than non binary and genderfluid. This is basically what the judgment was about.

Where things get tricky and where WP rules also get equally tricky and brought into conflict with many is genderfluid and non binary. Both legally in many countries from a common sense perspective, one can't flip from from gender to gender sometimes daily or leave it permanently open to interpretation when at birth, it was once black and white.

Someone who is one of these genders needs to be prepared for it to be regularly misinterpreted by people who mean to cause no offence......Often an honest mistake isn't acceptable in this day and age and even debate around the increasingly arbitrary nature of gender isn't allowed.

One cannot go into a shop identifying as a woman looking like a man, dressing like a man and talking like a man and then get offended if assumed to be a man by a member of staff.



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01 Jan 2022, 3:23 pm

Always liked this tweet from 2019 so I thought I'd share.

Quote:
Friendly neighborhood biologist here. I see a lot of people are talking about biological sexes and gender right now. Lots of folks make biological sex sex seem really simple. Well, since it’s so simple, let’s find the biological roots, shall we? Let’s talk about sex...[a thread]

If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well...

Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?

Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?

A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromsomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer...

Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”?? “Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And...

...if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this...

Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.

What does this all mean?

It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.

Try out some combinations for yourself. Notice how confusing it gets? Can you point to what the absolute cause of biological sex is? Is it fair to judge people by it?

Of course you could try appealing to the numbers. “Most people are either male or female” you say. Except that as a biologist professor I will tell you...

The reason I don’t have my students look at their own chromosome in class is because people could learn that their chromosomal sex doesn’t match their physical sex, and learning that in the middle of a 10-point assignment is JUST NOT THE TIME.

Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?

Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be. [end of thread]


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01 Jan 2022, 3:25 pm

That's incredibly well put, I'll have to add that to my copypastas.


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