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Deepthought 7
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22 Aug 2020, 2:11 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
If Alex is still here I would like to say that I have visited Asperger Forums and they have an option to choose whether to interact with the political forum or not on registration. The ambience there is fairly free of personal attacks and it is constructive. Vulnerable members who were targeted here for their unpopular political views and some really supportive and kind members who left WP because they hate an environment of conflict and hostility are thriving there. It provides support, social interaction, humour and information exchange netto.


Alex, please do not make PPR optional like AF. I believe that would be one of the worst decisions that could be made for the future of Wrong Planet. It works on AF because the rules are enforced consistently regardless of which forum people attend.

WP would improve if we could all use PPR without fear of being mocked, heckled, insulted, or attacked for our opinions. It is the only "academic" area of WP and as an academic I would like the opportunity to discuss Politics, Philosophy or Religion within the rules you have already established. I would like to debate or argue on an academic level. If PPR becomes optional, a few problems will occur:

1) Making PPR optional would suggest that anyone who ventures inside did so "at their own peril", or their own risk of being bullied. There is a belief that PPR does not uphold the same rules as the rest of WP, and this would put users in double jeopardy. I can picture that if PPR is segregated and a member elects to join, they will be told "we warned you!", if something goes wrong. We have already heard the rhetoric of "you shouldn't have gone there!" or "it was your own decision!", and this rhetoric is used to discredit members' legitimate concerns when rules are broken within that forum. In this regard, it would be counterproductive, and promote more shaming / blaming for victims who get attacked.

We already have members being told that they should grow thicker skin, not be sensitive, not voice opinions they might espouse, and not speak up against people who break rules. We don't need to reinforce an idea that PPR takes no prisoners, or that we are responsible for anything that goes wrong in attendance.

2) PPR is an intellectual forum, and many members would like to discuss Politics, Philosophy, or Religion in an intellectual way. We should all be permitted to discuss academic topics without feeling restricted from any area of the forum. I studied and taught Philosophy. I shouldn't have to decide whether I will join PPR, or risk being blamed for that choice if someone breaks the rules to attack me.

3) WP is meant to be inclusive of all members and all members' opinions, so long as they do not break the rules.

The focus here needs to be on enforcing rules, and allowing members to use the entire site without disclaimers. All fora should be moderated equally and everyone regardless of their opinions should be safe, provided they don't break your rules.

Please keep PPR accessible for us all. I would not want to participate in WP if I felt I had to choose between academic discourse, vs the possibility of being blamed with "I told you so!", if I step into PPR.

As stated on page 18 it think it more a case of no longer permitting 'attacks' on peoples comments according to TallyMan on Politics, Philosophy and Religion, but only 'critiques' instead perhaps on account linguistic habitual carry-overs. So basically stick to Alex's system of rules as they are and involving more moderators, and rewrite TallyMan's system or rules in the meantime.


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Last edited by Deepthought 7 on 22 Aug 2020, 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Aug 2020, 2:13 pm

I do hope that the current format in which posts are being displayed will only be temporary. I think it looks absolutely awful. Can you spot the actual 'post' in the screenshot below?

Image


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22 Aug 2020, 2:19 pm

BenderRodriguez wrote:
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On a related issue, something else that concerns me is that some of the worst behaviours in here have been posted in the past on ableist sites like Heartless Asperger's etc to show how bad autistic people are "straight from the horse's mouth". I find this very disturbing because a handful of people who act in a selfish manner can't seem to understand that they can affect all of us, including Alex who's a public figure.



And bigots will always find justifications to hate on a group. If they use this site and use this drama to justify why autistic people are heartless, they would have found other reasons too. You cannot convince someone. Just like how you cannot convince a racist there is systemic racism or that black people do get killed more by cops.


Sure, but do you feel particularly motivated to help them? And while the whole all autistics (particularly males) are evil psychos might affect you less personally, it will affect a lot more those who have a public image to maintain or get involved in activism.

And for what? If all the fights in here proved something is that you're not going to change anybody's opinion or vote by shaming or insulting them if anything they just dig their heels in deeper and feel more motivated to fight against you. Surely people aren't naive enough to think that a stranger calling someone out for racism online - be it justified or not - is going to change anybody's prejudices: they just learn to hide them better.




Nope, they can be shunned and I am all for ignoring someone who has harmful beliefs. I liked when racists stayed hidden, I want to go back to that again. If we don't call them out, it gets normalized and they think their beliefs are okay because everyone is accepting them and acting like those are just opinions and it reinforces their behavior in expressing it because they think it's acceptable. If you keep letting a child do name calling and you do nothing about it, the child will think it's okay to call people names because there are no consequences to their actions. This is how I see racism. It won't stop the child from thinking their neighbor child is a poo poo head but they will not say it to them because of consequences.

I find is humorous when bigots whine about being censored or cancelled when they were the ones to decide to open though mouths and express it. Now they are upset they are getting a consequence. It's been popcorn for me in the media and elsewhere on websites. They also don't like getting called out either and they go 'but it's my opinion, I am entitled to it" and I would say back to them "yes and we are entitled to loudly disagree with your "opinion," that is the joy of having free speech."

The right wings are all for free speech just as long as you don't call them out on their bigotry and don't say anything bad about them. They are not for free speech after all. :wink:


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22 Aug 2020, 2:28 pm

So wait a second - as much as we're derailing - you'd rather hide things under the rug than deal with them? :?

Because that always ends up blowing back into your face - all of our faces actually.

The rest of the paragraph actually makes the same point I do: civilised behaviour and language, something that anyone (at least here) can either learn and more often is already capable of.

Not sure what to say about the rest as in my country we have the opposite problem: hidden racists that could be your neighbours or coworkers who meet in dark corners like cockroaches and believe it or not, they manage to cause a lot of problems and are more difficult to deal with.


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magz
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22 Aug 2020, 2:37 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Nope, they can be shunned and I am all for ignoring someone who has harmful beliefs. I liked when racists stayed hidden, I want to go back to that again. If we don't call them out, it gets normalized and they think their beliefs are okay because everyone is accepting them and acting like those are just opinions and it reinforces their behavior in expressing it because they think it's acceptable. If you keep letting a child do name calling and you do nothing about it, the child will think it's okay to call people names because there are no consequences to their actions. This is how I see racism. It won't stop the child from thinking their neighbor child is a poo poo head but they will not say it to them because of consequences.

You won't teach a child not to go and call people names by calling that child names for transgressing this rule.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:42 pm

LG, you are not in a parent/child relationship with your fellow citizens, and to suggest that it's analoguos to that is quite arrogant. Also, if you censor a "bigot" before they can actually say their piece, how are they supposed to demonstrate that they aren't a bigot?


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22 Aug 2020, 2:43 pm

magz wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Nope, they can be shunned and I am all for ignoring someone who has harmful beliefs. I liked when racists stayed hidden, I want to go back to that again. If we don't call them out, it gets normalized and they think their beliefs are okay because everyone is accepting them and acting like those are just opinions and it reinforces their behavior in expressing it because they think it's acceptable. If you keep letting a child do name calling and you do nothing about it, the child will think it's okay to call people names because there are no consequences to their actions. This is how I see racism. It won't stop the child from thinking their neighbor child is a poo poo head but they will not say it to them because of consequences.

You won't teach a child not to go and call people names by calling that child names for transgressing this rule.


Now how did this turn into calling the kid names for name calling?

The kind of consequences they get are time outs or other kids don't play with them because they think they are mean. They also lose privileges by the adults for name calling.

Too bad you can't punish racists other than taking away their job and they have to find employment somewhere else, they also get ignored by other people online.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:45 pm

BenderRodriguez wrote:
So wait a second - as much as we're derailing - you'd rather hide things under the rug than deal with them? :?

Because that always ends up blowing back into your face - all of our faces actually.

The rest of the paragraph actually makes the same point I do: civilised behaviour and language, something that anyone (at least here) can either learn and more often is already capable of.

Not sure what to say about the rest as in my country we have the opposite problem: hidden racists that could be your neighbours or coworkers who meet in dark corners like cockroaches and believe it or not, they manage to cause a lot of problems and are more difficult to deal with.


If calling them out on their racism is wrong, then what else do you suggest we do?

You even said it won't stop them from being racist other than going into silence.

If they don't want to get fired, don't want to get cancelled, then I suggest they shut up since they won't stop being a racist as you said.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:49 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
LG, you are not in a parent/child relationship with your fellow citizens, and to suggest that it's analoguos to that is quite arrogant on your part. Also, if you censor a "bigot" before they can actually say their piece, how are they supposed to demonstrate that they aren't a bigot?


Bigots don't know they are bigots because if they knew, they would have stopped doing it after being called out. They cry censorship when they get banned or when their page shuts down by the TOS service. So yes, they do know they are a bigot but they do not believe they are one. In fact they like to call people bigots for not tolerating their bigotry so my comeback is "it is okay to be a bigot against bigoted opinions and it's okay to be closed minded against the intolerance."


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22 Aug 2020, 2:50 pm

LG, I never said it's wrong - that's up to your own moral compass - I said it's useless.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:52 pm

You are not the thought police, being a racist in your eyes is not illegal, and people being fed up with the pattern of behaviour you're describing is why the Orange one got into the white house in the first place.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:52 pm

Where exactly is all this racist, white supremacist and Nazi language that people are concerned about?

If someone makes a comment that is deemed racist, it should be reported to mods for a decision. Making assumptions or assuming that people are racist without a clear statement or evidence seems rather prejudicial to me.

Racism isn't allowed, and of course I'm antiracist, but I've yet to see any clear examples where a member has made racist overtures. People who call others racists have been asked for examples, but they've been unable to provide them.

Bigots exist on both sides of politics. As long as someone insists others must share their (non-violent or lawbreaking) opinion, they're bigots.


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Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 22 Aug 2020, 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Aug 2020, 2:52 pm

BenderRodriguez wrote:
LG, I never said it's wrong - that's up to your own moral compass - I said it's useless.




My bad then.

I have seen people also say online "if people are not loudly racist, then I wouldn't know who is racist and know to avoid them."

I am also saying those who complain about censorship and being censored can either go into silence or deal with the consequences.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:55 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Where exactly is all this racist, white supremacist and Nazi language that people are concerned about?

If someone makes a comment that is deemed racist, it should be reported to mods for a decision. Making assumptions or assuming that people are racist without a clear statement or evidence seems rather prejudicial to me.

Racism isn't allowed, and of course I'm antiracist, but I've yet to see any clear examples where a member has made racist overtures. People who call others racists have been asked for examples, but they've been unable to provide them.

Bigots exist on both sides of politics. As long as someone insists others must share their (non-violent or lawbreaking) opinion, they're bigots.


One example of racism is saying systemic racism doesn't exist or denying that black people are killed more by the cops.

I don't know how you can even prove this when someone is loudly denying it. It is right there in front of our own eyes. It's like asking me to prove the sky exists when we can see it above our heads.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:56 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
LG, you are not in a parent/child relationship with your fellow citizens, and to suggest that it's analoguos to that is quite arrogant on your part. Also, if you censor a "bigot" before they can actually say their piece, how are they supposed to demonstrate that they aren't a bigot?


Bigots don't know they are bigots because if they knew, they would have stopped doing it after being called out. They cry censorship when they get banned or when their page shuts down by the TOS service. So yes, they do know they are a bigot but they do not believe they are one. In fact they like to call people bigots for not tolerating their bigotry so my comeback is "it is okay to be a bigot against bigoted opinions and it's okay to be closed minded against the intolerance."


Lots of bigots on the left. Hating Trump supporters for having different opinions is bigotry.
Racist=/= bigot.


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22 Aug 2020, 2:58 pm

It is not an opinion if your beliefs violate human rights. If you think gay marriages should be outlawed for example, that is bigotry because you are denying them human rights to be themselves. Also if you support someone who is against gay marriages, that is also terrible too.


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