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League_Girl
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23 Aug 2020, 2:41 pm

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Add age to the list: I'm older and thought that since I'm neither racist nor homophobic, all is well. But recently I had to do a lot of research about transsexuality and gender identity and while I don't have anything against it, I still don't really understand some of it. I keep my mouth shut about it here instead of asking questions because I don't want to have my head bitten off.


I made that mistake here once. I remember someone made a thread talking about if their gender gets mistaken for another gender and I wrote how I am mistaken as a man and talked about how people often list wrong genders in their profiles so I don't take it seriously anymore when someone claims to be female because there is no option of "Male feeling female" and someone pointed out it was a medical condition.

This got taken as me being transphobic and I was unaware of gender issues and thought people just played pretend and I never had a problem with it, my only issue was dishonesty but if they were always upfront about it, I had no problem with it. And many trans people I knew online had always been upfront about their sex when we would start chatting privately. Remember the "asl" stuff? But I had always referred to them the gender they wanted to be referred as.

Well I learned that day this was apparently a political issue and it brings out strong feelings and people feel attacked when you "have a different opinion" in this so I backed out of the discussion.

No action was taken against me then and I don't think Alex has a rule against transphobia.


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alex
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23 Aug 2020, 2:49 pm

While of course people in other countries may be unaware of these things, i think it’s their responsibility to look into the history if they’re going to argue whether or not someone is racist.

But like as I said, slavery was very recent, legalized racism was even more recent and black people are still victims of racism on a daily basis.

So if you grew up in America you very likely are racist in at least some way. And it’s our responsibility to try to be introspective and challenge those believes in ourselves and in others.


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Oh_no_its_Ferris
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23 Aug 2020, 2:53 pm

Feyokien wrote:
I've recovered.


I'm glad :D

Dredging up up old irrelevant posts and the following statement are what triggered my sarcastic reply

Feyokien wrote:
It was an extremely racially insensitive remark, to compare the n-word (its historical context) to being called a white supremacist


I think it actually pointed out how hurt and offended Sly felt as he knows only too well how offensive that word is to PoC.

Do PoC get more offended at this word being used that Sly being called *insert you choice of derogatory statement* :?:


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funeralxempire
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23 Aug 2020, 2:59 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
Feyokien wrote:
I've recovered.


I'm glad :D

Dredging up up old irrelevant posts and the following statement are what triggered my sarcastic reply

Feyokien wrote:
It was an extremely racially insensitive remark, to compare the n-word (its historical context) to being called a white supremacist


I think it actually pointed out how hurt and offended Sly felt as he knows only too well how offensive that word is to PoC.

Do PoC get more offended at this word being used that Sly being called *insert you choice of derogatory statement* :?:


Your take likely isn't incorrect, but given the context of the thread and the initial accusation it was about the worst possible analogy to choose. It only helped solidify the accusation.

It seems fair to suggest that because the charge actually stuck (that a poster had expressed sympathy for white supremacist groups) when that criticism was shown to hold water his ego was deeply wounded and he essentially tried to suicide by cop by cursing out Alex. That's why I've been suggesting we stop providing oxygen to the fire, because as long as he remains defensive and hurt he won't have a chance to reflect and grow.

Most of us like him and none of us seems to actively dislike him, if he wishes to remain we'll be here for him.


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alex
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23 Aug 2020, 3:00 pm

It’s a word that literally was used to send the message “you’re” subhuman, we own you.” So even using it in any context is worse than any other word I can think of. Even PoC who aren’t black should never use it.

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
Feyokien wrote:
I've recovered.


I'm glad :D

Dredging up up old irrelevant posts and the following statement are what triggered my sarcastic reply

Feyokien wrote:
It was an extremely racially insensitive remark, to compare the n-word (its historical context) to being called a white supremacist


I think it actually pointed out how hurt and offended Sly felt as he knows only too well how offensive that word is to PoC.

Do PoC get more offended at this word being used that Sly being called *insert you choice of derogatory statement* :?:


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AuroraBorealisGazer
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23 Aug 2020, 3:05 pm

BenderRodriguez wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:

Alex, it's important to remember that there are many members here from different countries that aren't aware of what goes on in the US to the extent that you are. You are also a popular person living in a very progressive city, where I surmise you're exposed to many social activists/aware/woke people who know all of the rules.

I've become quite liberal in my political views, but I haven't been exposed to the same things you have and I'm still learning what things are and aren't PC. As autists we've probably all had our words pounced on because we don't know all of the social rules. This becomes very distressing when you have good intentions but can't ever seem to say things correctly.

I would hope on a site for NDs that we could be given the benefit of the doubt (that we may not know everything you know). I think instead of pointing fingers and declaring someone a racist, it would be helpful if we took the time to discuss with the person why what they said was offensive.


These are very good points. I'll give the first example that poped in my head: one of the most annoying things you can tell a Black European person is to call them African American. This might seem absurd, especially since some of them don't even have African heritage, but you would be surprised how often it happens and how much they hate it.

Add age to the list: I'm older and thought that since I'm neither racist nor homophobic, all is well. But recently I had to do a lot of research about transsexuality and gender identity and while I don't have anything against it, I still don't really understand some of it. I keep my mouth shut about it here instead of asking questions because I don't want to have my head bitten off.

So, some people are very entrenched in their own culture or milieu, lingo included, and forget or ignore that many others are not familiar with it. Sure, it's an individual responsibility to educate oneself, but some of these things move so fast these days and get so specific, especially in less mainstream, everyday issues, that not everybody can keep up.

It's much better to ask questions and engage in some kind of dialogue instead of making assumptions or jumping to conclusions, or worse, insults and accusations.


Thank you BR, I'm glad my words made sense (it was hard to put my thoughts into words on this).

I understand what you mean about trying to educate yourself on transsexuality and being hesitant to ask questions because you don't want your lack of understanding to come off as bigotry. I was fortunate to have been exposed to some of the LGBTQA (I hope this are the right letters) movement 10 years ago, but it had evolved so much since then that it's hard to keep up.

I hope WP can evolve into a safe space for us all to bring our questions without fear. While I don't typically have a high opinion of society as a whole, most of the members here have shown me they have good intentions and are receptive to constructive criticism. I really think if we can all work to be more mindful of where people are coming from, and try to mediate between offenders and offendees, it will be a better environment.



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23 Aug 2020, 3:09 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:

Some people here actually use the word in everyday life , I seriously doubt XFE is racist. Context is everything.

funeralxempire wrote:
There's people who might refer to me as their nigga on occassions, but I'm not very comfortable reciprocating unless we're close enough to know that the person uses it with everyone and broadly accepts usage.


It's not a word I use very often and I shouldn't use it either. Passes don't exist because you can't possibly get everyone who might be hurt by using it to sign-off. In that context I was making it clear that the usage that's synonymous with 'friend, companion, someone like me' isn't the same as the other main meaning, but it's probably not right for me to have used it.

TL;DR - I can't defend that usage, it was wrong.


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Last edited by funeralxempire on 23 Aug 2020, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Aug 2020, 3:11 pm

alex wrote:
That’s a great idea


Please keep us informed over the next few days/weeks with what progress you manage to make with the tech, admin and new mods issue or what ideas you have to make this a more inclusive and peaceful place and I'll do my best to start talking to people so we can move things along :)


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magz
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23 Aug 2020, 3:15 pm

alex wrote:
It’s a word that literally was used to send the message “you’re” subhuman, we own you.” So even using it in any context is worse than any other word I can think of. Even PoC who aren’t black should never use it.
Now I understand how a black American in Russia got so triggered when hearing the word негр ("nyegr") - despite it being a neutral descriptive word for a native Russian speaker, with no such connotations or intentions at all.

We come from diverse cultural backgrounds. We need such things clarified, not judged.


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alex
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23 Aug 2020, 3:17 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
Do PoC get more offended at this word being used that Sly being called *insert you choice of derogatory statement* :?:

No one is calling sly less-than-human, no one is calling sly things that bring up the recent history of his ancestors being enslaved.

There aren’t entire parts of the country flying a flag that stands for the belief that other people should be allowed to own him, his family, and everyone else who looks like him. People aren't arguing to keep up statues in the town he lives in of historical figures who fought for the right to own him and his family.

And no one is being banned for the things they’re saying in this thread that I find so wrong. I’m just pointing them out. I believe it’s best to educate.

I’m not trying to say anyone is bad or evil. I did get mad when an Australian member posted a really violent photo (since removed) depicting an infamous lynching but he didn’t even know the history of lynching or that specific event. It’s funny because he actually said “I didn’t learn about this in school because I’m not American even though most of America whitewashes the history books and pretends these things didn’t happen so he could have just as easily been born and raised here and made the same mistake

Perhaps it’s best to assume good faith but it’s hard when so many people in America are being so openly hateful and then claiming theyre not racist, they’re just expressing an opinion. And I think we should err on the side of being anti-racist rather than erring on the side of being worried about what terms we use in a political discourse.


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23 Aug 2020, 3:24 pm

I don’t live in “that” America.

I take the Census. There are at least 7-8 ethnic groups, and at least 4 “races” represented within an area of a few blocks. I don’t mean square blocks. I mean linear blocks.

People of different ethnic groups and races share gossip all the time.



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23 Aug 2020, 3:25 pm

magz wrote:
alex wrote:
It’s a word that literally was used to send the message “you’re” subhuman, we own you.” So even using it in any context is worse than any other word I can think of. Even PoC who aren’t black should never use it.
Now I understand how a black American in Russia got so triggered when hearing the word негр ("nyegr") - despite it being a neutral descriptive word for a native Russian speaker, with no such connotations or intentions at all.

We come from diverse cultural backgrounds. We need such things clarified, not judged.


I agree with this.

I get pissed off on here, I admit that. It's anger + control of others including speech on here, that isn't even questioned at first, that worries me. Jumping to essentially name-calling and using loaded words on someone to make them shut up.



magz
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23 Aug 2020, 3:35 pm

smudge wrote:
magz wrote:
alex wrote:
It’s a word that literally was used to send the message “you’re” subhuman, we own you.” So even using it in any context is worse than any other word I can think of. Even PoC who aren’t black should never use it.
Now I understand how a black American in Russia got so triggered when hearing the word негр ("nyegr") - despite it being a neutral descriptive word for a native Russian speaker, with no such connotations or intentions at all.

We come from diverse cultural backgrounds. We need such things clarified, not judged.
I agree with this.

I get pissed off on here, I admit that. It's anger + control of others including speech on here, that isn't even questioned at first, that worries me. Jumping to essentially name-calling and using loaded words on someone to make them shut up.
I think we are often not even aware of any need for clarification.


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23 Aug 2020, 3:36 pm

magz wrote:
alex wrote:
It’s a word that literally was used to send the message “you’re” subhuman, we own you.” So even using it in any context is worse than any other word I can think of. Even PoC who aren’t black should never use it.
Now I understand how a black American in Russia got so triggered when hearing the word негр ("nyegr") - despite it being a neutral descriptive word for a native Russian speaker, with no such connotations or intentions at all.

We come from diverse cultural backgrounds. We need such things clarified, not judged.

We've got one of those. Niggard.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/niggard

It's also derogatory, but has nothing to do with race.



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23 Aug 2020, 3:53 pm

alex wrote:
While of course people in other countries may be unaware of these things, i think it’s their responsibility to look into the history if they’re going to argue whether or not someone is racist.

But like as I said, slavery was very recent, legalized racism was even more recent and black people are still victims of racism on a daily basis.

So if you grew up in America you very likely are racist in at least some way. And it’s our responsibility to try to be introspective and challenge those believes in ourselves and in others.


Many of us here have expressed that we are constantly trying to understand all of the social rules, but as autists there's a big learning curve. Particularly with topics where the rules are constantly evolving.

For example, earlier in this thread it was stated that using the word "female" meant you were an incel. This is the type of nuance that they don't teach you in history books. It's the type of thing you may learn with a lot of social experience. I would hate to think it would be considered okay for a member to be proclaimed as an incel for using the word "female", without anyone ever taking the time to explain the connotation to them. Not only because it is distressing to know you've caused offense without understanding why, but because it detracts from the very serious designation of incel behavior.

So with all due respect, while I agree that we should all try our best to be cognizant, it seems ableist to expect us all to know the social rules given that this is an ASD site. Instead can we consider the approach I (and others) have suggested, of calmly explaining why the person was offensive?



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23 Aug 2020, 3:59 pm

alex wrote:
Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
Do PoC get more offended at this word being used that Sly being called *insert you choice of derogatory statement* :?:

No one is calling sly less-than-human, no one is calling sly things that bring up the recent history of his ancestors being enslaved.


I think you'll will find that a fair few members here including myself see racists as sub-human , no one here sees PoC as sub-human. They would be crucified for it and rightly so. As the site seems devoid of racists, members tend to pick on things that are not racist and treat them as if they are.

So in my opinion and maybe some others you did infer that Sly is sub human with my definitions.

You are a high profile member of the autistic community so may have so clout and influence and have openly declared one of the members here racist ( with your personal view of racism and language usage ) which could have detrimental effects.

I personally think you are bang out of order and need to retract that statement and apologise for the mistake.
I know your opinion deems all white people racist so why was there a need to single out one member if all whites are racist.

You have different definitions to me, but as it's your site , your rules , I can only disagree with you.

If I was a mod I would remove your post.


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