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aghogday
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26 Aug 2020, 1:30 pm

^^^
Oh Lord, Black Folks Have
Been called 'Animals' and Less
than Human For As Long as they've Been Around

in the United States at least...

Racist indeed, it still is.

Meh; on the Other Hand
i'm a Very Proud and Rather
Wild Animal Within; but You See for
me it's not Pejorative And For Them it is.

(By The Way, Wild Wolves Get along
Better in the World that Domesticated ones do)

Cognitive Empathy my Friend; Ya 'Gotta'
See it From Where Whoever 'They' are has
Been and How they are Still Treated Now...

Additionally, This May Be More Difficult
To Do as it seems You are not from
This Culture and Have Perhaps have
Not Seen The real 'Dark' Part of this
Too in Terms of Empathy of Feeling
How Other Folks Feel Treated this way;

And Again; i am surely not going be the
One To Volunteer to try to help folks see
this when it seems they are not able to Walk in "the other Person's Shoes"....

Obviously, You Don't See it this way; And it seems i surely can't blame you
for not being able to see it this way...

And yes, this is the
Problem here;
Some folks
Are NOT
Doing it on Purpose...
Hence, The Time And Effort
Required to really understand both sides...


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magz
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26 Aug 2020, 1:34 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Agreed, but not because of the word "animal" (rather more concerned about the shooting bit).

EDIT: I mean, yes describing people as animals is unacceptable, but not racist.

I would rather say: "describing people as animals does not need to be racist to be unacceptable". It's fundamentally unacceptable to dehumanize anyone.


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Wolfram87
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26 Aug 2020, 1:35 pm

Agreed.


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Steve1963
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26 Aug 2020, 1:37 pm

magz wrote:
It's fundamentally unacceptable to dehumanize anyone.
What if they've committed inhuman acts? Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind.



Fnord
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26 Aug 2020, 1:39 pm

Steve1963 wrote:
magz wrote:
It's fundamentally unacceptable to dehumanize anyone.
What if they've committed inhuman acts? Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind.
Describing his crimes as "inhuman" should be sufficient.  Describing him as "inhuman" might hurt his feelings.



Steve1963
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26 Aug 2020, 1:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
Steve1963 wrote:
magz wrote:
It's fundamentally unacceptable to dehumanize anyone.
What if they've committed inhuman acts? Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind.
Describing his crimes as "inhuman" should be sufficient.  Describing him as "inhuman" might hurt his feelings.
You mean it might eat at him?



magz
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26 Aug 2020, 1:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
Steve1963 wrote:
magz wrote:
It's fundamentally unacceptable to dehumanize anyone.
What if they've committed inhuman acts? Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind.
Describing his crimes as "inhuman" should be sufficient.  Describing him as "inhuman" might hurt his feelings.
Lol :lol: that would keep us on the save side of the rules :lol:
So, for our rule-oriented autistic minds, that's the prefered guideline.


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alex
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26 Aug 2020, 1:46 pm

LaLaLand wrote:
^^ That happened in 2014 and was swiftly dealt with by one poster and KIP

Do you have any recent examples because it 2020

there are plenty of examples from 2020, many have been pointed out. many more have not.

is that example not sufficient for explaining the difference in the use of the term wild animals?


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aghogday
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26 Aug 2020, 1:52 pm

If One is A 'Social Human Animal' Per Science Definition;

It's Almost Impossible to Go Through Life Without Shaming;
Yes, Dehumanizing Others Who Do not Fit into Whatever Group
Think Rule For Whatever Cultural Size Group Unit; But Sure; It's Possible
With Enough Discipline; And Also With Enough Courage Not to Be Worried About
Getting Dumped From the
Group Think; Yes,
Whatever Cultural
Unit one is in; for
in this way, one Will
Get Shamed, And Dehumanized
too; not as Big Of A Deal Now; But A Huge
Deal When Being Part of the Group Subsistence
Efforts, Means Actual Life or Death in Real life then;
And Sure, in Terms of Losing A Job or Losing Support
of Friends for Real Now too; As While Not Necessarily
Economic in Negative Impact; Psychological Starvation
in Ways of Social Shaming is as difficult as Physical Injury in Pain,
As Assessed By Science too; Therefore, Rules, Regulations, Laws,
Moderators, Policeman And Politicians for Change are necessary
to Balance it all out for Least Harm; eliminating the Harm, NOT altogether;
A More Perfect Union Yes, With Appropriate Discipline in Every Way; Hmm...


There are no Concrete
Answers; Flexibility is
Required for Even the
Basic Human Nature We
All Are at Core; We Tend to
Be Very Tribal this way; but with
Technology and so many Avenues now
for Social Support Globe Wide; We Don't
Need each other this way as much individually per say and DO;
And Ironically that means We Have less Overall Empathy for Folks this way...

It's a Good Day to Be a 'Cat';
But Not so Much if one is a 'Dog'...

Wolf is best for me;

Wild Doesn't Nearly
Require as much Maintenance
As Domesticated does, overall...


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Last edited by aghogday on 26 Aug 2020, 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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26 Aug 2020, 1:53 pm

I think we're talking about two, largely unrelated, issues.

No one questions the quote was absolutely unacceptable.

I do take an issue with moderators and other people of power on WP talking to members with dismissive, judgemental tone.


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LaLaLand
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26 Aug 2020, 1:55 pm

alex wrote:
LaLaLand wrote:
^^ That happened in 2014 and was swiftly dealt with by one poster and KIP

Do you have any recent examples because it 2020

there are plenty of examples from 2020, many have been pointed out. many more have not.

is that example not sufficient for explaining the difference in the use of the term wild animals?


It was a perfect example to illustrate your point thanks but it was also a perfect example of dealing with such comments.

Kip seems like a good mod.



alex
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26 Aug 2020, 2:00 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Quote:
These rioters are nothing but wild animals. They need to be shot for setting buildings and vehicles on fire and for looting. Just because they don't agree with the outcome of a verdict does not give them the right to be dumb asses. Why do black people act so out of control when something does not go their way? I am in no way racist, but blacks act like the world owes them.


This bit is racist because of the last two lines, not because it includes the word "animals". Even the first sentence alone wouldn't be racist as it would be describing the action of rioting with no mention of the race of the rioters.


Plus, you included the word "thug" under racist words, even though that word is a Hindi loan-word that has no actual racial component but rather describes a type of criminal.


Alex wrote:
I'm kind of shocked to hear people defending poster's right to say things like that without being called out as racist or policing how it's done.


You have had it explained to you in detail that that is not the issue.


Seriously stop. This is your last warning. How hard is it to understand that people use words without racist definitions or originally racist connotations in order to say racist things without appearing as racist as they would have if they just stuck to the n word.

Look up monkey or ape. The dictionary definitions are specific types of animals. It doesn't mention the fact that there's a long racist history of using those terms to describe black people.


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blazingstar
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26 Aug 2020, 2:01 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Did we not read the same guidelines? I've no issue with rules against racism, but declaring non-racist words to be racist is a slope of the slippery variety. And including the phrase "in any context" in a rule that would rely heavily on context to determine wether something was racist or not is thoughtless and counter-productive. And that's not even getting into the expectation of deference in points 3 and 4.


Everyone has to make their own decisions based on their own integrity. I am not at all criticizing people who feel they cannot serve. I understand completely. Right now, I'd still like to do what I can and I think of it not so much as enforcing Alex's rules but in protecting the community in spite of the rules. If that makes sense. Because Alex does not moderate, he said, it would be up to the moderators to make those decisions. In a sense it gives too much power to the moderators, but if we can get good ones, and magz, teach and wolf would be great ones, I think we can make a difference.

I could be wrong. I frequently am. But I am willing to try.


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26 Aug 2020, 2:02 pm

Fnord wrote:
alex wrote:
... I'm kind of shocked to hear people defending poster's right to say things like that without being called out as racist or policing how it's done. Or people saying "nothing racist has been said" when clearly people say racist things on here all the time and then claim it isn't or claim they're not a racist in the same paragraph filled with racist words and argument.
That's what I call "Covert Racism" -- someone does not actually use words and terms that are inherently racist, but who says things about people of other races in a discriminatory, insulting, or belittling way ... and then they claim they are not being racist.



Is that what they call a dog whistle?

For example when Donald Trump said he was going to build a wall to keep out illegals and to stop new diseases (whatever he said) and I knew he was referring to a group of people without actually saying it.

When he also decided to close our countries to certain countries, I knew it was to target Muslims.

These were dog whistles and he didn't actually list a group of people but anyone who can pick up on this stuff would know. That is why he is called a racist.

However, closing our entire countries to ALL countries to stop the spread of the corona is not racism and I am astonished how anyone wouldn't be able to tell the difference and they see this as hypocrisy instead.

If someone on here decides to use dog whistles, I am sure they would be harder to ban and slip through the cracks because this is an autism forum.


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Last edited by League_Girl on 26 Aug 2020, 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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26 Aug 2020, 2:03 pm

Quoted for truth...

alex wrote:
... people use words without racist definitions or originally racist connotations in order to say racist things without appearing as racist as they would have if they just stuck to the n word...
This is another way to define "Covert Racism".



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26 Aug 2020, 2:06 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Fnord wrote:
alex wrote:
... I'm kind of shocked to hear people defending poster's right to say things like that without being called out as racist or policing how it's done. Or people saying "nothing racist has been said" when clearly people say racist things on here all the time and then claim it isn't or claim they're not a racist in the same paragraph filled with racist words and argument.
That's what I call "Covert Racism" -- someone does not actually use words and terms that are inherently racist, but who says things about people of other races in a discriminatory, insulting, or belittling way ... and then they claim they are not being racist.
Is that what they call a dog whistle? ...
"Dog-Whistles" are what "Cover Racists" use to identify each other and to get their hate-filled lies in front of impressionable people and the Media.